Another new Brexit thread

[Saddleworth2]

Hey - this is about analysis by, I assume, qualified professionals, of events since the referendum and up to date

It is indeed only Remainers that still cling to the 'unfairness' of the referendum.

But - I should have known better than to post in the spirit of causing some self-examination.

Afterall I was suggesting that it should be Leavers that might be moved perhaps to feel more empathy. I was not wishing to provoke responses from Remainers getting all indignant - and missing the irony of how they perhaps reinforce.............

I think that I will put that down to a well intended but misguided/futile effort from myself

You assume? So you dont know who wrote that bilge? I must have missed the fact based analysis in the piece.

If I posted the analysis that indicates leave voters were on average less educated
than remain voters, would that be as valid?
There is enough to be discussing sensibly that is in front of our nose Than regurgitating shite on either side.
Self examination? Do some.

 

[mcfc1632]

You assume? So you dont know who wrote that bilge? I must have missed the fact based analysis in the piece.

If I posted the analysis that indicates leave voters were on average less educated
than remain voters, would that be as valid?
There is enough to be discussing sensibly that is in front of our nose Than regurgitating shite on either side.
Self examination? Do some.

TBF - I was seeking to prompt Leavers into having more understanding of the behaviours they have witnessed and bring forward more empathy - why this level of angst from you?

I seem to have strangely touched a nerve here - are the articles triggering something that resonates with the events of the last years that you feel should be suppressed?

And yes - I assumed that these are indeed qualified professionals - why should I not?

Those setting out their views are referred to as:

Dr. Philip Corr, professor of psychology and behavioural economics at the University of London, and

Dr. Simon Stuart, a clinical psychologist

Do they not sound like qualified professionals to you? I thought that they did so did not feel the need to research them

Anyway - to hopefully lighten the mood and bring us all some hope that this will soon be over and we can reduce the anxiety levels:

Keir Starmer 'Likely' To Support Boris Johnson’s Brexit Trade Deal (yahoo.com)

 

[Vic]

Been a slow day - thought that I would share this article that I came across.

Most, understandably, will not bother - it needs 5-10mins to read - but I found it chimed in a few places with the experiences that I have found on here over the years - it might with others (Remainers or Leavers)

It sets out some considerations of how and why, following the referendum, the attitudes of Remainers to Leavers did not help the cause to get Brexit over-turned.

I cannot be bothered researching - but I don't think the source is either pro-Leave of Pro-Remain - it just seemed to me to offer a recognisable analysis:

Why did the Remainers fail to keep Britain in the EU? | TheArticle

Edit: One of the links in that article - to a Politico analysis piece - so not pro-Leave - also really did strike some chords and helped me to appreciate the likely causes of the behaviour of some individual posters on here.

I guess if we Leavers can accept that individuals have been caused genuine psychological trauma - whilst we have not - then we can perhaps find it easier to have more empathy?

Britain’s middle-class Brexit Anxiety Disorder – POLITICO

Together though, these 2 articles might get across to some of the Remainers - just how they have been presenting themselves and a few pennies might drop

I did the courtesy of reading that psychological mumbo jumbo, distilling the response of millions opposed to Brexit into an "anxiety disorder". Two years on, you'd have to be mad not to be worried about what Brexit will do to the economy, or just don't care.

 

[Vic]

You assume? So you dont know who wrote that bilge? I must have missed the fact based analysis in the piece.

If I posted the analysis that indicates leave voters were on average less educated
than remain voters, would that be as valid?
There is enough to be discussing sensibly that is in front of our nose Than regurgitating shite on either side.
Self examination? Do some.

The article did point out that Remainers were (tended to be) better educated, so apparently we're all suffering from shock from realising that inferior people could have made such a mistake. Well, of course that's idiotic - why would anyone be surprised that less intelligent people make less intelligent decisions? I thought the whole article was a well-aimed piss take, to get fellow psychologists cross about the lack of academic rigour, until I found that one of the academics had pointed out that the "diagnosis" was by the author of the article, with Simon Stuart saying "My point is about the unworkability of unfocused anger: that’s all".

The other academic Philip Corr had made a psychological case for a second referendum. https://www.city.ac.uk/news/2016/july/brexit-redux-the-psychological-case-for-a-second-referendum

 

[mcfc1632]

Probably worth pointing out (again) that the intention of posting those articles was to generate some Leaver reflection

I guess I should have realised though that - given how most Leavers have given up on this thread - that the analysis would be firstly seen by and shouted down by Remainers. Disappointing though that this has been the case - is there something about the analysis that is causing uncomfortable realisations?

Anyway - busy work day tomorrow so need to get back to preparing for that

 

[west didsblue]

Together though, these 2 articles might get across to some of the Remainers - just how they have been presenting themselves and a few pennies might drop

Probably worth pointing out (again) that the intention of posting those articles was to generate some Leaver reflection

You need to at least keep your story straight or people will laugh at you even more than they already do.

 

[mcfc1632]

The article did point out that Remainers were (tended to be) better educated, so apparently we're all suffering from shock from realising that inferior people could have made such a mistake. Well, of course that's idiotic - why would anyone be surprised that less intelligent people make less intelligent decisions? I thought the whole article was a well-aimed piss take, to get fellow psychologists cross about the lack of academic rigour, until I found that one of the academics had pointed out that the "diagnosis" was by the author of the article, with Simon Stuart saying "My point is about the unworkability of unfocused anger: that’s all".

The other academic Philip Corr had made a psychological case for a second referendum. https://www.city.ac.uk/news/2016/july/brexit-redux-the-psychological-case-for-a-second-referendum

As @Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese (I think it was) pointed out the other day.....

You do go to some strange lengths to seek to prevent the views of others being aired. Have you nothing better to do with your time - perhaps there is indeed some reflection needed?

I now wish I had posted those articles in the morning as there would be more chance of their intended audience of Leavers seeing them rather than getting the reactions that I should have anticipated from Remainers. Unfortunately, most Leavers would not be looking at the thread in the evening as they have been largely driven from the thread - by exactly the sort of behaviour that the articles comment on. That in itself should make people pause - don't you think?

 

[mcfc1632]

You need to at least keep your story straight or people will laugh at you even more than they already do.

I wonder how much time you put into thinking how to twist my words to seek to make some cheap point?

My first post said:

"I guess if we Leavers can accept that individuals have been caused genuine psychological trauma - whilst we have not - then we can perhaps find it easier to have more empathy?

Britain’s middle-class Brexit Anxiety Disorder – POLITICO

Together though, these 2 articles might get across to some of the Remainers - just how they have been presenting themselves and a few pennies might drop"


So my main message was clearly to Leavers - perhaps you evidence that you also have a the need for some reflection?

 

[Vic]

As @Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese (I think it was) pointed out the other day.....

You do go to some strange lengths to seek to prevent the views of others being aired. Have you nothing better to do with your time - perhaps there is indeed some reflection needed?

I now wish I had posted those articles in the morning as there would be more chance of their intended audience of Leavers seeing them rather than getting the reactions that I should have anticipated from Remainers. Unfortunately, most Leavers would not be looking at the thread in the evening as they have been largely driven from the thread - by exactly the sort of behaviour that the articles comment on. That in itself should make people pause - don't you think?

How on earth am I preventing other views being aired? I'm countering your view, and that really does seem to be the heart of the problem. You post something but take umbrage at any challenge to its validity or veracity.

And I don't now care if this is "twisting your words" but what's this morning / evening thing? Leavers are all in bed early?

As to psychological damage, maybe some of the reaction to Brexit is anxiety-driven (for entirely rational reasons) but then Brexit itself is a bit mad, based on delusions either of imperial grandeur or the existence of unicorns.

I must admit I didn't get what I expected when I googled "brexit psychosis". One man (with a previous history of mental illness) was so traumatised by the vote that he had a psychotic episode a few weeks after the referendum; this one case was written up in 2019 and got widely reported. By contrast a 2018 medical report about the psychological effect of increased racism around Brexit seems to have been largely ignored, but as the abstract prophetically said, "To conclude, since the EU referendum, the potential effects of Brexit on BAME communities have been largely ignored in political and media discourse".

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https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(18)30018-X/fulltext

 

[jaseirai]

Why unfortunately? How has he disappointed you?

Brexit fine (up to now at least); everything else complete shite.

 

[jaseirai]

Been a slow day - thought that I would share this article that I came across.

Most, understandably, will not bother - it needs 5-10mins to read - but I found it chimed in a few places with the experiences that I have found on here over the years - it might with others (Remainers or Leavers)

It sets out some considerations of how and why, following the referendum, the attitudes of Remainers to Leavers did not help the cause to get Brexit over-turned.

I cannot be bothered researching - but I don't think the source is either pro-Leave of Pro-Remain - it just seemed to me to offer a recognisable analysis:

Why did the Remainers fail to keep Britain in the EU? | TheArticle

Edit: One of the links in that article - to a Politico analysis piece - so not pro-Leave - also really did strike some chords and helped me to appreciate the likely causes of the behaviour of some individual posters on here.

I guess if we Leavers can accept that individuals have been caused genuine psychological trauma - whilst we have not - then we can perhaps find it easier to have more empathy?

Britain’s middle-class Brexit Anxiety Disorder – POLITICO

Together though, these 2 articles might get across to some of the Remainers - just how they have been presenting themselves and a few pennies might drop

I hadn’t heard that leavers were fat before but it was no surprise that someone at the LSE thought it was a worthy area of research.

 

[Saddleworth2]

TBF - I was seeking to prompt Leavers into having more understanding of the behaviours they have witnessed and bring forward more empathy - why this level of angst from you?

I seem to have strangely touched a nerve here - are the articles triggering something that resonates with the events of the last years that you feel should be suppressed?

And yes - I assumed that these are indeed qualified professionals - why should I not?

Those setting out their views are referred to as:

Dr. Philip Corr, professor of psychology and behavioural economics at the University of London, and

Dr. Simon Stuart, a clinical psychologist

Do they not sound like qualified professionals to you? I thought that they did so did not feel the need to research them

Anyway - to hopefully lighten the mood and bring us all some hope that this will soon be over and we can reduce the anxiety levels:

Keir Starmer 'Likely' To Support Boris Johnson’s Brexit Trade Deal (yahoo.com)

No nerve touched. Simply pointing out deficiencies in another article you have posted. Whilst not the Bruges Group which you presented as a balanced view of Major, these authors were just as bad imo.

 

[west didsblue]

I wonder how much time you put into thinking how to twist my words to seek to make some cheap point?

My first post said:

"I guess if we Leavers can accept that individuals have been caused genuine psychological trauma - whilst we have not - then we can perhaps find it easier to have more empathy?

Britain’s middle-class Brexit Anxiety Disorder – POLITICO

Together though, these 2 articles might get across to some of the Remainers - just how they have been presenting themselves and a few pennies might drop"


So my main message was clearly to Leavers - perhaps you evidence that you also have a the need for some reflection?

Not sure how I’m twisting words when I’ve fully quoted two paragraphs. You post inconsistent claptrap. That’s Brexit though in a nutshell.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

but then Brexit itself is a bit mad, based on delusions either of imperial grandeur or the existence of unicorns.

Lol, right there is the definition of 'Middle class Brexit Anxiety Disorder.'
We know, in fact everyone knows, we no longer have an empire, and that
we're not about to restart colonialism, yet this ridiculous assertion must have been used a thousand times on here, which sort of confirms that there is an irrational desire to attribute the leave vote to something, anything, that appears to disparage it.
Anyway, not long now, we'll soon have no butter and be unable to fold up the bike and put it in the boot, so there's enough to be worried about without folks' psychological problems.

 

[Vic]

Lol, right there is the definition of 'Middle class Brexit Anxiety Disorder.'
We know, in fact everyone knows, we no longer have an empire, and that
we're not about to restart colonialism, yet this ridiculous assertion must have been used a thousand times on here, which sort of confirms that there is an irrational desire to attribute the leave vote to something, anything, that appears to disparage it.
Anyway, not long now, we'll soon have no butter and be unable to fold up the bike and put it in the boot, so there's enough to be worried about without folks' psychological problems.

I'll admit to a bit of shorthand with the imperial grandeur, but English exceptionalism is rife. The confected fuss over Rule Britannia sums it up. Bad enough losing an empire without becoming citizens (aka subjects) of a European Union. Sovereignty, independence, it's all the language of a lost world. No man is an island, and these days nor is a nation.

 

[bonespost]

Looks like Kent going to be full of truck drivers lemonade .

 

[BobKowalski]

Johnson made a decision on whether to take the deal or not? Nope? Ah, well, perhaps he is still hoping something will turn up so he doesn’t have to make a decision.

 

[BobKowalski]

In essence this story is about the UK accepting EU rules or trade outside of the bloc. If UK does accept then we get ‘equivalence’ status as per other non-EU countries. In a way this is what the overall deal is about. Accepting EU rules or not, and accepting EU rules is currently a philosophical issue for the UK.

It’s also a political problem for Johnson as he no longer has the support from the ERG mob for any significant deal. Covid has weakened his position and any EU deal struck now will be treated with suspicion.

‘EU tells banks to trade derivatives inside bloc after Brexit | Reuters‘

Reuters | Breaking International News & Views

Find latest news from every corner of the globe at Reuters.com, your online source for breaking international news coverage.

uk.reuters.com

 

[Vic]

Devolved Ministers demand U-turn on Treasury plans to cut £455m of rural funding (after promises to match current EU farming funds)​

 

[BobKowalski]

French media reporting Michel Barnier has told David Frost he sees no need to travel to London at the weekend for more 'probably pointless' talks unless there's movement on the three key sticking points. No decision has been made yet, neither side is denying this report.

Brexit : les Européens de plus en plus agacés du sur-place britannique

Si les négociations ont avancé sur plusieurs points techniques, les questions les plus épineuses sont bloquées, et Londres ne semble pas faire d'ouverture. Une pointe d'exaspération est perceptible, à Bruxelles, devant une stratégie qui pourrait mener à l'échec des discussions.

www.lesechos.fr