Another new Brexit thread

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journolud said:
You’ve got a choice which “level” you operate at and when you choose to are one of the few Brexit advocates who will actually discuss and rationalise the issues rather than resort to snide and stupid remarks. I’m not interested in “policing” the thread, that’s what I believe the mods are for though it’s obviously a thankless

Are you really surprised that news wasn’t discussed on here? It had passed me by but does it not develop the themes I’ve asked you to address, themes you have now acknowledged but choose not to address, preferring to “drop down to the gutter “. For a seemingly intelligent man...

So, adding that to the resignations of Cummings and Cain, where do you think the negotiations are headed?
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To the betrayal of 17.4 million people and the resignation of the worse Prime Minister in the UKs history hopefully.
 
mcfc1632 said:
Nah - I had a few beers instead, but I am surprised that you do not notice the way the cadre of regular Remainers act as a sort of inner circle. It is as if they see the thread as their domain, which - given their success in getting so many Leavers to give up on the thread - is perhaps unsurprising.

Anyway - I make no apologies for expressing some admiration for the way @Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese handles some of the 'contributions' from Remainers on here - as just one example:

Why that was aimed at any Leavers on here is a mystery to me - but I would have expected that you would have also admired the calm way MSC addressed that post.

So yeah - I felt OK about expressing admiration

Anyway - back on topic..........

I am surprised this news was not discussed on here:
UK PM names new chief of staff: former banker and adviser Rosenfield | Reuters
Worked closely with George Osborne - a Remain supporter and worse - a red

What does this suggest for the last weeks of Brexit negotiations? For someone that has been worried about Johnson's 'resolve' and character it is perhaps a worrying sign
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I asked all the Leavers who've left the thread.

52% said it was because Brexit was done. (Of those, 2% said they really believed it was done.)

48% said it was because they now realised Brexit was shit and they could no longer defend it.

20% said it was because they were now embarrassed by attempts to justify it, especially by posters who don't want to debate details but just blether about inconvenient truths.

20% were disappointed that we wouldn't be in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border. (Of those 52% now realised the whole Leave campaign was based on lies.)

1% said they left because they didn't like Remainers taking the piss. (Of those, 52% think there's a WhatsApp group discussing how best to take the piss.)

4% had now met someone from the EU working in hospital or a care home rather than just in Pret and realised what a valuable contribution they made to Britain.

32.554% said they didn't believe statistics, especially about how bad Brexit would be, so no longer posted.
 
An Irish look into the problems of sausages and bypassing the GB land bridge...

‘Brexit: Food chain disruption and the death of the land bridge‘ via @RTENews

www.rte.ie

Food chain disruption and the death of the land bridge

The full implications of Brexit on established food supply chains between Ireland and the UK, and the UK and the European continent, have been painfully revealed in recent days.
www.rte.ie www.rte.ie
 
The Secretary of State for Business - another Minister of State making a complete dick of himself whilst trying ( and failing thanks to Nick Ferrari ) to be a slippery bastard - and how can some businesses prepare for Brexit when they don't know what the conclusion of the negotiations is?

 
bluethrunthru said:
The Secretary of State for Business - another Minister of State making a complete dick of himself whilst trying ( and failing thanks to Nick Ferrari ) to be a slippery bastard - and how can some businesses prepare for Brexit when they don't know what the conclusion of the negotiations is?

Click to expand...

I agree it;'s not ideal, but I suppose the pragmatic thing to do is prepare for no deal.
 
BobKowalski said:
An Irish look into the problems of sausages and bypassing the GB land bridge...

‘Brexit: Food chain disruption and the death of the land bridge‘ via @RTENews

www.rte.ie

Food chain disruption and the death of the land bridge

The full implications of Brexit on established food supply chains between Ireland and the UK, and the UK and the European continent, have been painfully revealed in recent days.
www.rte.ie www.rte.ie
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remember this pack of lies?

www.theguardian.com

Boris Johnson accused of misleading public over Brexit deal after Northern Ireland remarks – video

Johnson made the promise despite arrangements for customs controls under the Brexit deal he agreed last month with the EU
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
journolud said:
....

So, adding that to the resignations of Cummings and Cain, where do you think the negotiations are headed?
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A deal ultimately, just not a deal this year.

Johnson seems to have lost around 40 MPs who will not vote for the deal currently on offer and the deal isn’t going to change substantively between now and 31 December. Johnson is now just playing for time in the hope something better turns up. The necessity of any deal is reduced to the calculation of what is better for Johnson politically. All other considerations are secondary.

Philosophically the Tory party is pretty much wedded to having no dealings with European countries via the EU and wants to ideally embed itself in the Anglo-sphere. The US is it’s first choice, which with Biden now President is more of a long shot than it was under Trump. Then it’s Australia/Canada/NZ and possible access to the Pacific rim trade deal.

Being a member of something or having a conditional trading relationship with some countries isn’t an issue, the issue is having it with European countries and/or the EU. Essentially we have arrived at the philosophical endpoint of Brexit and that is the EU and European countries are the enemy and the EU has to fail, irrespective of the consequences.
 
BobKowalski said:
A deal ultimately, just not a deal this year.

Johnson seems to have lost around 40 MPs who will not vote for the deal currently on offer and the deal isn’t going to change substantively between now and 31 December. Johnson is now just playing for time in the hope something better turns up. The necessity of any deal is reduced to the calculation of what is better for Johnson politically. All other considerations are secondary.

Philosophically the Tory party is pretty much wedded to having no dealings with European countries via the EU and wants to ideally embed itself in the Anglo-sphere. The US is it’s first choice, which with Biden now President is more of a long shot than it was under Trump. Then it’s Australia/Canada/NZ and possible access to the Pacific rim trade deal.

Being a member of something or having a conditional trading relationship with some countries isn’t an issue, the issue is having it with European countries and/or the EU. Essentially we have arrived at the philosophical endpoint of Brexit and that is the EU and European countries are the enemy and the EU has to fail, irrespective of the consequences.
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Don't worry Bobert, according to todays Guardian BJ's best mate Starmer is wipping labour MP's to vote it through. They are not allowed to say the word 'support' though!
 
mcfc1632 said:
Will try - but suspect that they are all taken by the Remainers on here that dominate the thread

Shall I post some examples - it would be so easy to do?

Don't need to go back far - check out Dids and Dids buddying up earlier.

I could point out very many - would it be helpful to show that it is far more frequent to see 'buddying up' comes from the Remainer side?
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Yet another invented truth to go with 'the pack' and leavers being 'hounded off the thread'
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
Don't worry Bobert, according to todays Guardian BJ's best mate Starmer is wipping labour MP's to vote it through. They are not allowed to say the word 'support' though!
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Lots of alternatives.

Bail out. Rescue the UK from utter Tory stupidity. Save farming, fishing and factories. Duty to save us from the failed promises. Keep planes flying. Make sure you get your medicines. Shame Johnson for what is not his finest hour. Mitigate the mess. Death to the No Deal destroyers. Ignominy for the inconvenient truthers. Piss off the political willers. Roust Rees-Mogg. Protect the Good Friday Agreement. Avoid never-ending palaver. Terminate the Tories' trash. Restore Britain's reputation for Reason. Unicorns are dead. Cakes have nearly been eaten, we have to save the crumbs.

The nation stands on a precipice - the Conservative Party has led us here and wants to step back from the edge and in the national interest the Labour Party will help dismantle the cliff.

And if Messers Johnson and Gove now want to fulfil their promise that we would be in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border, yes they will have our support.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
Don't worry Bobert, according to todays Guardian BJ's best mate Starmer is wipping labour MP's to vote it through. They are not allowed to say the word 'support' though!
Click to expand...

Johnson is going to torch his premiership with his party by accepting Labour votes on a deal that is fairly thin gruel at best? I see no incentive for Johnson in doing this. A no deal exit binds the party to him. What is the political incentive to do otherwise?
 
BobKowalski said:
Johnson is going to torch his premiership with his party by accepting Labour votes on a deal that is fairly thin gruel at best? I see no incentive for Johnson in doing this. A no deal exit binds the party to him. What is the political incentive to do otherwise?
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I suppose he gets to say he got a deal and 'got brexit done' -back to what Vic was saying about promises I suppose. He can probably ride out the ERG storm on that basis too.
 
BobKowalski said:
Johnson is going to torch his premiership with his party by accepting Labour votes on a deal that is fairly thin gruel at best? I see no incentive for Johnson in doing this. A no deal exit binds the party to him. What is the political incentive to do otherwise?
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To avoid being blamed for the damage of a no deal exit. There's no win for him here. Unless there's a clear personal benefit in damaging the country, even he would choose not to damage the country. And there are no votes now in Brexit.

The real and present danger is that he simply cannot make a decision, or just finds it easier to let us slide into a chaotic no deal rather than go and face Parliament with any deal. It may have been another misjudgment by MPs to insist that our sovereign Parliament should have a final say on any deal - but not to have a vote to approve No Deal.

Bottler Boris's No Deal.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
I suppose he gets to say he got a deal and 'got brexit done' -back to what Vic was saying about promises I suppose. He can probably ride out the ERG storm on that basis too.
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Johnson will become the new ‘Ted Heath’ and be dumped on the roadside like every Tory PM who tried to tackle the Tory Party’s European problem since Heath.

He’s already lost enough Tory MP’s support on Covid, so pushing through a deal, any deal with the EU with Labour support will torch Johnson’s Premiership. Brexit is an internal party issue and internal party politics will decide whether there is a deal or not this year.

Next year we will be back at the negotiating table and the whole thing will start again. SNP will be delighted, Labour will get to use every delayed truck as a stick to beat the Govt, the Tory press will scream we are being punished by the evil EU and issue a call to arms and the EU will beat us over the head with the Withdrawal Agreement with Ireland using EU and US leverage to back it up.

The window for Johnson to do a deal was within the first six months of this year. That window has closed to the point that whatever he does now is a choice between ‘shit’ and ‘really shit’.

Don‘t get me wrong, I hope there will be a deal before 31st Dec, I just think UK internal politics is pushing us in the opposite direction.
 
Vic said:
To avoid being blamed for the damage of a no deal exit. There's no win for him here. Unless there's a clear personal benefit in damaging the country, even he would choose not to damage the country. And there are no votes now in Brexit.

The real and present danger is that he simply cannot make a decision, or just finds it easier to let us slide into a chaotic no deal rather than go and face Parliament with any deal. It may have been another misjudgment by MPs to insist that our sovereign Parliament should have a final say on any deal - but not to have a vote to approve No Deal.

Bottler Boris's No Deal.
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Agree. Although I think Tory MPs would now vote for no deal, but it would be good to get that on record via a vote.
 
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