Another new Brexit thread

[Metal Biker]

It wasn't quite as clear as a brexit election. Many voted tory simply to prevent Labour winning rather than pursuing exercising their view on Brexit.

I think it is bonkers that the govt is still going off a mandate from 2016. We have had 2 PMs since and not sure what people were actually voting for.

The EU is heavily undemocratic and corrupt. Nobody in the UK voted for the chancellor. I have seen first hand large European companies lobby (aggressively) to push through their agenda stealing market share from smaller UK companies. I'm also not sure why a trading bloc requires an anthem or an army. But I just don't think the price we will pay economically and the restrictions we will face with travel is worth the cost of "independence". Having seen how corrupt our own govt is, why are people offended by EU corruption?

You don't question the reason why non-Tory voters would vote Tory to prevent a Labour Government?

It's not the same Cabinet though, remember. The one who called the referendum, Cameron's, was replaced by May's and when she was clearly out of her depth about getting a deal and unable to unite her Government, it too was replaced by Johnson's. In 2019 all the parties made their position clear about how to deal with brexit;

- We authorise leaving on Jan 31 2020 and then negotiate a deal (Cons)
- We negotiate a deal and then ask the public what it still wants; leave with deal/remain (Labour)
- We abandon the idea entirely and ask to remain (LD's, Greens, SNP)

You may not think the price of leaving is worth fighting against the corruption and negative aspects of the EU, but many of us did and still do. Your other comment made absolutely no sense. We're NOT happy with the corruption of our own Parliamentary system either and people ARE demanding change, but so long as we were in the EU, our MP's are now accountable and directly responsible for their actions, unable to pass the buck of responsibility on the EU. It was a corruption we COULD change as the EU told us directly that it wasn't going to and we'd have to like it and lump it, so we left. People will still be able to travel, people will still be able to buy and afford European goods.

 

[journolud]

That's a terrible thing to suggest. We are lucky to have him to speak up on behalf of the rest of the industry that seems to be blindly careering towards Jan 1St without a care in the world. The French are as bad - they've not even started to build lorry parks yet and it's December.

Won’t he feel stupid when he realises he’s wasted all this energy worrying when not a single other hauler has a concern in the world about it

 

[Metal Biker]

Think it's the written version of debate by gif.

But fish puns are A-OK!!

 

[BobKowalski]

That's a terrible thing to suggest. We are lucky to have him to speak up on behalf of the rest of the industry that seems to be blindly careering towards Jan 1St without a care in the world. The French are as bad - they've not even started to build lorry parks yet and it's December.

France is leaving the EU Single Market and Customs Union? Game changer.

 

[mcfc1632]

The point is that in the scheme of things fish are irrelevant. 0.02% of our GDP, so a victory on fish means very little, and as I predicted we got one. Although a 7 year transition isn’t quite the victory I expected. Let’s see what happens on the issues that affect the other 99.9% of the population.

That comment only further demonstrates that you do not understand the value of the fishing topic in these negotiations

 

[BobKowalski]

Rather enjoying Govt reps insisting this morning that the ‘oven ready deal’ and ‘get Brexit done’ referred only to the WA and in no way meant that Brexit was actually done and everyone knew that.

That the Govt is also now trying to unilaterally rewrite the WA, rather neatly sums up the fact free zone that is the Brexit project.

I’m not sure there has ever been a project that has its history rewritten so quickly and so often.

 

[Vic]

That comment only further demonstrates that you do not understand the value of the fishing topic in these negotiations

Neither do you, or you would tell us.

 

[Northernstorirs]

You don't question the reason why non-Tory voters would vote Tory to prevent a Labour Government?

It's not the same Cabinet though, remember. The one who called the referendum, Cameron's, was replaced by May's and when she was clearly out of her depth about getting a deal and unable to unite her Government, it too was replaced by Johnson's. In 2019 all the parties made their position clear about how to deal with brexit;

- We authorise leaving on Jan 31 2020 and then negotiate a deal (Cons)
- We negotiate a deal and then ask the public what it still wants; leave with deal/remain (Labour)
- We abandon the idea entirely and ask to remain (LD's, Greens, SNP)

You may not think the price of leaving is worth fighting against the corruption and negative aspects of the EU, but many of us did and still do. Your other comment made absolutely no sense. We're NOT happy with the corruption of our own Parliamentary system either and people ARE demanding change, but so long as we were in the EU, our MP's are now accountable and directly responsible for their actions, unable to pass the buck of responsibility on the EU. It was a corruption we COULD change as the EU told us directly that it wasn't going to and we'd have to like it and lump it, so we left. People will still be able to travel, people will still be able to buy and afford European goods.

I have mentioned that I acknowledge the EU is undemocratic but can you please tell me how you would benefit from the UK leaving especially through a no deal? I am yet to hear a strong argument. You aren't happy with the corruption from our own government but you are happy for them to facilitate the departure from the EU?

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

I have mentioned that I acknowledge the EU is undemocratic but can you please tell me how you would benefit from the UK leaving especially through a no deal? I am yet to hear a strong argument. You aren't happy with the corruption from our own government but you are happy for them to facilitate the departure from the EU?

See Tony Benn's 5 questions to power.

 

[west didsblue]

That comment only further demonstrates that you do not understand the value of the fishing topic in these negotiations

On the contrary. It's much more important to the EU than to us and we are attempting to use it as a lever to gain concessions on LPF and governance. The problem now is, that if it is confirmed, we have agreed a 7 year transition which will suit the EU and we have nothing tangible in return. In any event, however important fish are to the EU, it pales into insignificance when compared to LPF and governance. We will of course declare victory on fish as you have already done, and use that to mask the complex concessions we've made in the more important areas. Fortunately for Boris and yourself, most people have little interest in the intricacies of LPF compared to the more easily understood fish discussions so it will go over most peoples' heads.

I don't expect you to understand or respond with anything but sneering condescension so you might as well not bother.

 

[blueparrot]

On the contrary. It's much more important to the EU than to us and we are attempting to use it as a lever to gain concessions on LPF and governance. The problem now is, that if it is confirmed, we have agreed a 7 year transition which will suit the EU and we have nothing tangible in return. In any event, however important fish are to the EU, it pales into insignificance when compared to LPF and governance. We will of course declare victory on fish as you have already done, and use that to mask the complex concessions we've made in the more important areas. Fortunately for Boris and yourself, most people have little interest in the intricacies of LPF compared to the more easily understood fish discussions so it will go over most peoples' heads.

I don't expect you to understand or respond with anything but sneering condescension so you might as well not bother.

the government have convinced many people fish is important, whatever deal is finally agreed, 99.9% of people will realise the fishing issue has made no difference to their lives, and for some of those that make aliving from fish and seafood it will have made their livings worse

 

[mcfc1632]

The man has a point @mcfc1632

Not really IMO

He certainly - and I suggest you also - know those points that I make are not aimed at the Remainer collective

Just those that have dominated the thread for years - seemingly intent on closing the thread to sensible debate by flooding it with inane bollocks

Anyway - the points that I would wish to acknowledge would be the quality of some analysis by Remainers of the article I linked

If that manifests then I will clearly need to accept that I misjudged, but so far that does not seem to be the case......

 

[west didsblue]

the government have convinced many people fish is important, whatever deal is finally agreed, 99.9% of people will realise the fishing issue has made no difference to their lives, and for some of those that make aliving from fish and seafood it will have made their livings worse

Exactly.
It is, as some regularly say on here, an inconvenient truth.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

On the contrary. It's much more important to the EU than to us and we are attempting to use it as a lever to gain concessions on LPF and governance. The problem now is, that if it is confirmed, we have agreed a 7 year transition which will suit the EU and we have nothing tangible in return. In any event, however important fish are to the EU, it pales into insignificance when compared to LPF and governance. We will of course declare victory on fish as you have already done, and use that to mask the complex concessions we've made in the more important areas. Fortunately for Boris and yourself, most people have little interest in the intricacies of LPF compared to the more easily understood fish discussions so it will go over most peoples' heads.

I don't expect you to understand or respond with anything but sneering condescension so you might as well not bother.

Good point. And fish is in any event a hollow victory for a number of reasons.

1 The EU control the quota and the quota is set based on a share of a sustainable level. If we pull out and up our quota we are only going to start a process that leads to unsustainable levels of fishing.

2 The quota is only half the story - we sold the rights to land fish in the UK on a permanent basis in the 90's. These rights are now held by many big corporates so any benefit goes to these companies that may not be UK based or UK owned.

3 The fishing industry in the UK is not self sustainable, it is reliant on EU sales and processing so in a no deal its bolloxed anyway and the EU know this.

4 As above its negligible in the grand scheme of things. It makes zero impact in any meaningful way.

 

[stonerblue]

The UK's lawnmower industry is bigger than fishing..

 

[Saddleworth2]

The UK's lawnmower industry is bigger than fishing..

It’s certainly a cut above other industries.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Some of you seem a bit obsessed with fishing considering how unimportant it is.

 

[Saddleworth2]

The man has a point @mcfc1632

O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae mony a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion:

 

[Metal Biker]

I have mentioned that I acknowledge the EU is undemocratic but can you please tell me how you would benefit from the UK leaving especially through a no deal? I am yet to hear a strong argument. You aren't happy with the corruption from our own government but you are happy for them to facilitate the departure from the EU?

When has my argument ever been about "wanting no deal"?

We've left the EU Parliament/Commission, we're no longer a member. I'm satisfied. Getting a deal is now part of a different conversation, one I hope we acheive. I'm not concerned about "getting one over on the EU" and playing hardball, i'm not bothered about "being seen" to come out of the trade deal stronger/weaker.

If tarriff free trade continues i'll be satisfied with the deal. So long as the EU is unable to exercise any powers over the UK, I'll have no issues with a deal/no deal outcome but a deal is preferred.

I'm not happy with the corruption of the Parliamentary system and the inequality that London presides over the rest of the UK. As long as London was supported by the EU, its power could not be challenged. It's not our Government that made the decision to leave, the British electorate did. Subsequent Govt's had passed the buck on that responsibility, but, as stated, in 2019 we all voted to ensure that the party that promised they would, would form the next Government.

I'd have preferred a Labour presided brexit, but they had other ideas, didn't they.

 

[Metal Biker]

Some of you seem a bit obsessed with fishing considering how unimportant it is.

Maybe its the "I care so little about the fish, why don't we just concede it?" notion.