Another new Brexit thread

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Thats a long rant for you. Not sure how it relates to my post though. I was simply stating a fact.

That the UK always had the means to 'control immigration' and chose not to do so was just another....

Sorry for the unintelligent rant. I take it back - you are right of course.

 

[Metal Biker]

I agreed with your post completely until this bit which is completely overegged. Not every remain campaigner fell into this category. A few did for sure.

Just as remainers like to give prominence to the "bus and poster", which was largely ignored as significant except by those who saw ways to capitalise on it, the most prominant images of remain were the likes of Clegg, Izzard, Geldof and various other self-righteous celebs who did their best to influence the debate and vote by using smear tactics.

No-one addressed leave voters concerns on the remain side, nobody wanted to have the debate and the ones that did always resorted to condescending tones, accusations of racism and belittling their concerns. And these were amongst the electorate, not just by those mentioned.

 

[Ban-jani]

Remain’s issue for me, and what disappointed me the most about the campaign, was that it focused on negatives and threats and was a little patronising, rather than focusing on the benefits of EU membership.

Of course it did the latter to some degree but that should have been 99% of the campaign.

We didn’t hear much about the net financial benefit to our economy, or the fact we have opt outs to significant changes.

We had the ace card imo, as what remain was arguing for was the best option, but it took the line of “don’t vote for leave you morons because this, this and this will happen”.

A significant number of people who were probably retrievable, maybe thinking leave but could have been persuaded, thought you know what you can fuck off.

Immigration is a big talking point and for good reason, we’ve had net 100,000’s of people every year since Blair was in charge. Even Ed Miliband apologised for it and said he’d try to bring it down but if he’s being honest he’s not sure he could put a figure on what to, with freedom of movement.

Remain needed to hold their hands up and say we haven’t used the right to stay controls with EU migrants and we’ve also allowed 100,000’s from outside the EU to arrive but that would mean the Tories admitting to not doing something they promised and we call know they’re utterly incapable of doing that. They needed to admit they could have controlled migration more but didn’t.

They needed to do that and talk about the benefits of EU migrants to the economy. EU migrants typically arrive at working age, contribute far more than they take out and then leave before retirement, to go back to their country to settle. EU migrants contribute more than UK citizens per head on average as there’s barely any of them here as pensioners.

That said, there are of course negatives to such mass immigration. Culture changes quickly, infrastructure (transport, roads, schools, doctors appointments, housing etc.) put under huge strain. We live on an island that’s already built too much on our countryside.

Remain needed to combat what leavers said in my last paragraph (they were right), by talking about my second to last paragraph (they would have been also right). But they didn’t, they just pretended it wasn’t happening.

I know some have talked about slogans not being important but I fundamentally disagree. “Take Back Control” was genius, it was probably the most significant political slogan the country has seen since Churchill said “never surrender”. Purely because it’s emotional and not factual.

Human beings are, in the main, reasonable on an individual basis. If you get them in a group they’re far more likely to be unreasonable. Whichever way you vote you’ll be grouped with people voting out of emotion and slogans really do resonate with that.

 

[Ban-jani]

Yeah but they didn't.

Instead they went down the route of saying that legitimate concerns about EU membership, namely the ever increasing shift towards a federal Europe that a lot of us were concerned about as it meant more power being removed from the electorate and placed in the hands of politicians, was mere "nonsense" and that a vote to leave was stooped in racism, and the public hated that notion and were turned off.

If that's how manipulative remainers could be, how manipulative were the EU to make people think that way? seemed to be the thought. It was almost as if they were suggesting criticism of the EU was in itself a racist notion to have. EVERY poll showed a clear remain victory, don't forget. It wasn't banners or buses that led to leave gaining votes, it was the actions and rhetoric of the remainers themselves that persuaded the most people (and still does; 2019 being a prime example that they hadn't learned their lesson)

The election last year was the point I realised I was fighting a losing battle with leave vs remain, it just proved the country, even after 3 years of shit with the government, wanted to leave.

From that point all I’ve wanted was a deal with the EU, so free trade could continue.

2024 is actually a decent time away, gives us a few years to settle down after Brexit and then we have have a clear choice of whether we want to progress as centre left or centre right moving forward.

The whole thing though is hedged on Johnson getting this deal done, it’s a bit of a disgrace he’s allowed it to run to the wire, we need it very badly imo to secure the future of the country.

 

[Metal Biker]

The election last year was the point I realised I was fighting a losing battle with leave vs remain, it just proved the country, even after 3 years of shit with the government, wanted to leave.

From that point all I’ve wanted was a deal with the EU, so free trade could continue.

2024 is actually a decent time away, gives us a few years to settle down after Brexit and then we have have a clear choice of whether we want to progress as centre left or centre right moving forward.

The whole thing though is hedged on Johnson getting this deal done, it’s a bit of a disgrace he’s allowed it to run to the wire, we need it very badly imo to secure the future of the country.

Believe me i'm under no illusions that once out, we're out permanently. That's the beauty of democracy, but such decisions should, IMO, remain under the dictation of the electorate, not the politicians who "think they know best".

In 2024, i'd be canvassing for us to rejoin the EFTA, which i've always seen as the best compromise between the more level headed remain and leave advocates. Its the path I wanted Cameron's Govt to go down from the start, but he pussied out, something few will ever forgive him for.

In regards to the deal, i'm one of those who really doesn't care about what type of deal we get; all the posturing others make about "aha, the UK concedes AGAIN!" or "aha, the EU BENDS to US!" and those who revel in such announcements are childish. In negotiations like these there will always be give and take; so long as the main aspect about leaving the EU (no longer being under the jurisdiction or influence of EU decisions over our own Parliament and electorate) is kept.

 

[Ban-jani]

Believe me i'm under no illusions that once out, we're out permanently. That's the beauty of democracy, but such decisions should, IMO, remain under the dictation of the electorate, not the politicians who "think they know best".

In 2024, i'd be canvassing for us to rejoin the EFTA, which i've always seen as the best compromise between the more level headed remain and leave advocates. Its the path I wanted Cameron's Govt to go down from the start, but he pussied out, something few will ever forgive him for.

In regards to the deal, i'm one of those who really doesn't care about what type of deal we get; all the posturing others make about "aha, the UK concedes AGAIN!" or "aha, the EU BENDS to US!" and those who revel in such announcements are childish. In negotiations like these there will always be give and take; so long as the main aspect about leaving the EU (no longer being under the jurisdiction or influence of EU decisions over our own Parliament and electorate) is kept.

Cameron doing a runner was shocking to be honest with you.

He should have had a plan for both options and been there to implement either of them.

Whether that be lobbying the EU more if we remained or going down a soft Brexit route if we voted leave.

Him resigning was incredibly poor form.

Regarding the future, I’m not sure about EFTA if we can get a fairly decent deal. If we can trade freely, in most industries with them, whilst securing more sovereignty than you’d get as an EFTA member, I’d be happy with that.

I think if we don’t strike a deal by New Year then EFTA needs to be an option, but the Tories will never stand for that.

 

[Metal Biker]

Cameron doing a runner was shocking to be honest with you.

He should have had a plan for both options and been there to implement either of them.

Whether that be lobbying the EU more if we remained or going down a soft Brexit route if we voted leave.

Him resigning was incredibly poor form.

Regarding the future, I’m not sure about EFTA if we can get a fairly decent deal. If we can trade freely, in most industries with them, whilst securing more sovereignty than you’d get as an EFTA member, I’d be happy with that.

I think if we don’t strike a deal by New Year then EFTA needs to be an option, but the Tories will never stand for that.

That's my stance too in the event of no deal.

If we fail to reach an agreement with the EU, an EFTA membership application must at least be considered and the party that considered the option in its manifesto would get my support.

 

[Vic]

I agreed with your post completely until this bit which is completely overegged. Not every remain campaigner fell into this category. A few did for sure.

The idea that Remain wanted to make immigration an issue is ludicrous.

 

[Vic]

...

In 2024, i'd be canvassing for us to rejoin the EFTA, which i've always seen as the best compromise between the more level headed remain and leave advocates...

Well, yes. They would be the leave advocates, the Vote Leave campaign, Johnson, Gove who said we would still be in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border.

What did happen to that?

I know what happened. They thought we'd get it for nothing and they have been breeding unicorns ever since.

 

[M18CTID]

Oh good grief. 20% of voters said immigration was their main issue in the referendum, and the vast majority of that 20% voted Leave.

"According to the British Election Study, the vast majority who said immigration (88%) or sovereignty (90%) was the most important issue voted Leave, compared to a small minority (15%) who said it was the economy.

"The NatCen Panel found that people’s views on the likely impact of leaving the EU ahead of the Referendum were significantly associated with how they eventually voted. Those that felt that leaving the EU would give Britain more influence in the world, reduce unemployment, lower immigration, make the economy better off, and strengthen Britain’s security were all significantly more likely to vote Leave."

Which means for 80% it wasn't so even if the vast majority of those 20% voted Leave, there's a far bigger majority of Leave voters who didn't consider immigration as their main issue in the referendum.

I'll also add that a fair chunk of these rabid Remainers (not the more balanced ones obviously) trying to generalise all Leave voters as racists also happen to be Corbyn fan boys, yet Corbyn himself has been a huge critic of the EU throughout most of his political career until he miraculously did the mother of all 180s in the run-up to the referendum when backing Remain. Does anyone seriously think that if he was still a backbench MP as opposed to Labour leader that he would've supported Remain? No, would he balls - never in a million fucking years given his history on this topic. Yet Corbyn's decades long anti-EU stance gets a free pass from many Remainers, despite the fact that that stance will have undoubtedly influenced others to think that way, whereas members of the public (who by and large don't have that platform to influence others) daring to cast what was - in many cases - a once in a lifetime vote for Leave get pelters!

 

[Vic]

Which means for 80% it wasn't so even if the vast majority of those 20% voted Leave, there's a far bigger majority of Leave voters who didn't consider immigration as their main issue in the referendum.

I'll also add that a fair chunk of these rabid Remainers (not the more balanced ones obviously) trying to generalise all Leave voters as racists also happen to be Corbyn fan boys, yet Corbyn himself has been a huge critic of the EU throughout most of his political career until he miraculously did the mother of all 180s in the run-up to the referendum when backing Remain. Does anyone seriously think that if he was still a backbench MP as opposed to Labour leader that he would've supported Remain? No, would he balls - never in a million fucking years given his history on this topic. Yet Corbyn's decades long anti-EU stance gets a free pass from many Remainers, despite the fact that that stance will have undoubtedly influenced others to think that way, whereas members of the public (who by and large don't have that platform to influence others) daring to cast what was - in many cases - a once in a lifetime vote for Leave get pelters!

That's 20% of all voters, so something like a third of leave voters had immigration as the single most important issue in their choice.

 

[M18CTID]

That's 20% of all voters, so something like a third of leave voters had immigration as the single most important issue in their choice.

I know it's 20% of all voters FFS! And one third of Leave voters having it as their single most important issue means two thirds didn't. Do the maths Vic. Oh, and having concerns about immigration doesn't automatically make someone a racist.

 

[Ban-jani]

Lol ... Deluded..... all the TORIES have ever done is to attempt to / or removed the rights of the working class.

Please let me have an act passed by the Conservatives that has benefited the average man since 1956.

I'll wait.

 

[Len Rum]

As predicted by many on here and others for some time, looks like it's going to be LPF subject to independent arbitration.
Fish kicked into the deep water.
( obviously services including finance not covered and lots of non price tariff barriers and border checks will come into force).
Being staged as all last minute to enable Johnson to claim a great personal victory.

 

[grunge]

Believe me i'm under no illusions that once out, we're out permanently. That's the beauty of democracy, but such decisions should, IMO, remain under the dictation of the electorate, not the politicians who "think they know best".

In 2024, i'd be canvassing for us to rejoin the EFTA, which i've always seen as the best compromise between the more level headed remain and leave advocates. Its the path I wanted Cameron's Govt to go down from the start, but he pussied out, something few will ever forgive him for.

In regards to the deal, i'm one of those who really doesn't care about what type of deal we get; all the posturing others make about "aha, the UK concedes AGAIN!" or "aha, the EU BENDS to US!" and those who revel in such announcements are childish. In negotiations like these there will always be give and take; so long as the main aspect about leaving the EU (no longer being under the jurisdiction or influence of EU decisions over our own Parliament and electorate) is kept.

That has to be one of the biggest U-Turns i've seen on this thread. You were totally for stopping free movement originally as it hit low paid workers and were involved in a LOT of heated debates about it. Yet one of the Key points of EFTA is free movement.

 

[dave_blue12]

Which means for 80% it wasn't so even if the vast majority of those 20% voted Leave, there's a far bigger majority of Leave voters who didn't consider immigration as their main issue in the referendum.

I'll also add that a fair chunk of these rabid Remainers (not the more balanced ones obviously) trying to generalise all Leave voters as racists also happen to be Corbyn fan boys, yet Corbyn himself has been a huge critic of the EU throughout most of his political career until he miraculously did the mother of all 180s in the run-up to the referendum when backing Remain. Does anyone seriously think that if he was still a backbench MP as opposed to Labour leader that he would've supported Remain? No, would he balls - never in a million fucking years given his history on this topic. Yet Corbyn's decades long anti-EU stance gets a free pass from many Remainers, despite the fact that that stance will have undoubtedly influenced others to think that way, whereas members of the public (who by and large don't have that platform to influence others) daring to cast what was - in many cases - a once in a lifetime vote for Leave get pelters!

Not from me he doesn't. I see Corbyn's lukewarm campaigning for Remain as one of the key reasons the vote was lost.

I also think that many Leave voters voted for change (I know this from a few family and friends) and I perfectly understand that. The UK isn't perfect and neither is the EU so why not change things ? But sadly for all of us they aren't going to get the type of change they envisaged.

There are, of course, the racist morons who we see threatening people on the streets who voted Leave but I believe these people are very much in the minority and don't believe any of the Leavers on here fall into that group.

 

[west didsblue]

That has to be one of the biggest U-Turns i've seen on this thread. You were totally for stopping free movement originally as it hit low paid workers and were involved in a LOT of heated debates about it. Yet one of the Key points of EFTA is free movement.

To be fair he never stopped banging on about EFTA, but apparently without realising it was just like EU membership but without a say in how it's run.

 

[M18CTID]

Not from me he doesn't. I see Corbyn's lukewarm campaigning for Remain as one of the key reasons the vote was lost.

I also think that many Leave voters voted for change (I know this from a few family and friends) and I perfectly understand that. The UK isn't perfect and neither is the EU so why not change things ? But sadly for all of us they aren't going to get the type of change they envisaged.

There are, of course, the racist morons who we see threatening people on the streets who voted Leave but I believe these people are very much in the minority and don't believe any of the Leavers on here fall into that group.

Fair enough Dave - that's a perfectly reasonable post and I don't disagree with any of that. Being a "soft" Leave voter I can see both sides of the Brexit argument and in the run-up to the vote I probably did more to explain to some Leave mates that there are actually benefits to EU membership and it's not all bad than actually banging the Leave drum! And if there was another referendum I'd probably vote to Remain, which is what I'm hearing from several other mates as well.

 

[grunge]

To be fair he never stopped banging on about EFTA, but apparently without realising it was just like EU membership but without a say in how it's run.

Yep, Free movement, Standardised industries, bound by EU laws ( not sure if all of them mind you ) that we have no say in and we'd end up paying more each year to be a member of EFTA than we would have to be an EU member,

 

[Metal Biker]

That has to be one of the biggest U-Turns i've seen on this thread. You were totally for stopping free movement originally as it hit low paid workers and were involved in a LOT of heated debates about it. Yet one of the Key points of EFTA is free movement.

I have always advocated for EFTA, even way back in the original EU referendum thread. I have never opposed freedom of movement, I was against the exploitation of workers by companies exploiting cheap labour via FoM. EFTA advocates against political integration and a customs union.

You're talking out of your arse or have me confused with someone else.