Another new Brexit thread

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M18CTID said:
Which means for 80% it wasn't so even if the vast majority of those 20% voted Leave, there's a far bigger majority of Leave voters who didn't consider immigration as their main issue in the referendum.

I'll also add that a fair chunk of these rabid Remainers (not the more balanced ones obviously) trying to generalise all Leave voters as racists also happen to be Corbyn fan boys,
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No, the rabid remainer's were the FBFE mob, the very people who despise Corbyn, because they are the Liberal left not the Socialist left. They are the people like Umuna who left to join ClungeUK and the now Lord Austin who got a Tory peerage for services against the Labour party.

I say this as a "fan boy" who supports leave. Socialism and the EU are not compatible bedfellows, you simply cannot be a Socialist and be pro EU, the EU is a Neo-liberal club built around the free market.
 
Len Rum said:
As predicted by many on here and others for some time, looks like it's going to be LPF subject to independent arbitration.
Fish kicked into the deep water.
( obviously services including finance not covered and lots of non price tariff barriers and border checks will come into force).
Being staged as all last minute to enable Johnson to claim a great personal victory.
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There will be one (or two) on here that will also claim it as a great personal victory. Naming no names you understand ;-)
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Just as remainers like to give prominence to the "bus and poster", which was largely ignored as significant except by those who saw ways to capitalise on it, the most prominant images of remain were the likes of Clegg, Izzard, Geldof and various other self-righteous celebs who did their best to influence the debate and vote by using smear tactics.

No-one addressed leave voters concerns on the remain side, nobody wanted to have the debate and the ones that did always resorted to condescending tones, accusations of racism and belittling their concerns. And these were amongst the electorate, not just by those mentioned.
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largely ignored my arse.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
At what cost were we 'enjoying' them though?

That was kind of the whole point. Again, it's the Scotland/Westminster, UK/Brussels comparison. When a trade arrangement is just that, a trade arrangement, it is significantly better than one which has rules, regulations, payments to budgets, ever increasing federalism etc etc attached to it.

Had it stayed the EEC nobody would have thought about leaving, but the EU is now a much different monster to what we initially agreed to join and it was costing us more and more. Our relationship with Europe was always meant to be about trade, not cohesion, power-sharing, federalism, European identitarianism, border initiatives. It might have for some, but not all, and those people voiced their concerns and here we are.

You know how you're not happy Scotland is being dragged away from Europe against it's will? Why is that 'wrong' but forcing those of us who do not agree with the direction the EU was heading in and being forced to comply with it perfectly acceptible? What would you have done to assuage those of us with these concerns about EU membership, or would you have just ignored us again? That's why a lot of us consider these new trade agreements are 'better' than the ones we had. They offer us more freedom.
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A great deal was done mate. That’s why we had so many opt outs.
You know that I don’t accept equivalence. The U.K. had a great deal more influence within the EU than Scotland does within the UK.
 
Rascal said:
No, the rabid remainer's were the FBFE mob, the very people who despise Corbyn, because they are the Liberal left not the Socialist left. They are the people like Umuna who left to join ClungeUK and the now Lord Austin who got a Tory peerage for services against the Labour party.

I say this as a "fan boy" who supports leave. Socialism and the EU are not compatible bedfellows, you simply cannot be a Socialist and be pro EU, the EU is a Neo-liberal club built around the free market.
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Russ, my comments were aimed at people in this thread as opposed to the wider world and the FBPE mob you refer to. In any case, it wasn't aimed at you personally as I know you're not a Remainer anyway but what you went on to say shows just how complicated and conflicting this whole topic is. Brexit isn't solely a right-wing ideology - it appeals to people across the whole political spectrum.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
A great deal was done mate. That’s why we had so many opt outs.
You know that I don’t accept equivalence. The U.K. had a great deal more influence within the EU than Scotland does within the UK.
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Scotland asked for a referendum on membership and the UK Parliament approved it.

How is that not having influence? If Scotland voted Labour along with the rest of the UK, you'd have Parliament members you voted for as part of the UK Government. You choose to side with the minority SNP and then complain about not having influence?

All the SNP wants to say in Parliament is how bad the Government is doing is a prime reason Scotland should be independent. That's it. The UK does not agree with the rest of Europe about the direction it's taking and we've been told "fine, but we're gonna do it anyway". The EU HATED our opt-outs and were working on ways to get around them, hence Cameron's frustrations and his talks with Tusk.

Again, you really should be seeing the frustrations about EU membership from a Scottish position.
 
M18CTID said:
Fair enough Dave - that's a perfectly reasonable post and I don't disagree with any of that. Being a "soft" Leave voter I can see both sides of the Brexit argument and in the run-up to the vote I probably did more to explain to some Leave mates that there are actually benefits to EU membership and it's not all bad than actually banging the Leave drum! And if there was another referendum I'd probably vote to Remain, which is what I'm hearing from several other mates as well.
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Thanks.

I too have heard from a few leave voters that they would probably vote remain now. I think the phrase 'too much hassle' got used on more than one occasion, which is not a great reason but they didn't really have terribly strong reasons for voting leave in the first place.

But we are where we are with a truly odd bunch steering the ship. Fingers crossed for a sensible outcome.

But frankly I wouldn't trust our current Government to run a tombola.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Scotland asked for a referendum on membership and the UK Parliament approved it.

How is that not having influence? If Scotland voted Labour along with the rest of the UK, you'd have Parliament members you voted for as part of the UK Government. You choose to side with the minority SNP and then complain about not having influence?

All the SNP wants to say in Parliament is how bad the Government is doing is a prime reason Scotland should be independent. That's it. The UK does not agree with the rest of Europe about the direction it's taking and we've been told "fine, but we're gonna do it anyway".

Again, you really should be seeing the frustrations about EU membership from a Scottish position.
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Sigh. Said it before, we could vote Labour in every Scottish seat and would still have a Tory government just now.
you seem to want me to empathise or something. Why? I want to rejoin the EU through an independent Scotland.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
Sigh. Said it before, we could vote Labour in every Scottish seat and would still have a Tory government just now.
you seem to want me to empathise or something. Why? I want to rejoin the EU through an independent Scotland.
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Not empathise, just understand.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Believe me i'm under no illusions that once out, we're out permanently. That's the beauty of democracy, but such decisions should, IMO, remain under the dictation of the electorate, not the politicians who "think they know best".

In 2024, i'd be canvassing for us to rejoin the EFTA, which i've always seen as the best compromise between the more level headed remain and leave advocates. Its the path I wanted Cameron's Govt to go down from the start, but he pussied out, something few will ever forgive him for.

In regards to the deal, i'm one of those who really doesn't care about what type of deal we get; all the posturing others make about "aha, the UK concedes AGAIN!" or "aha, the EU BENDS to US!" and those who revel in such announcements are childish. In negotiations like these there will always be give and take; so long as the main aspect about leaving the EU (no longer being under the jurisdiction or influence of EU decisions over our own Parliament and electorate) is kept.
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Yep, EFTA was what I wanted too once the referendum was done. I was quite conflicted on the run up to the referendum but one of the key reasons I didn’t vote for leave was not knowing which variant of it was likely to be implemented and I didn’t find any of the other potential options as even remotely palatable.

It’s why I don’t like the sole badging of remainers and leavers. Those terms should have stopped as soon as the referendum was done, its then been about much more than just two distinct groups.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
I have always advocated for EFTA, even way back in the original EU referendum thread. I have never opposed freedom of movement, I was against the exploitation of workers by companies exploiting cheap labour via FoM. EFTA advocates against political integration and a customs union.

You're talking out of your arse or have me confused with someone else.
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Nope, Sorry it was you. While stopping business exploiting immigrates and driving down salaries may have been your ultimate point ( which I do recall you mentioning a few times in our debates ) you were, like it or not, very vocal about stopping free movement back in the day.
 
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Mëtal Bikër said:
Proving the point, right there. I didn't give a shit about Farage's poster; YOU went to bed with it.
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There are other people in this country apart from me and you. How we saw the bus and poster is not indicative of the rest of the voting public.
The fucking bus went on a tour of the country, was the backdrop for numerous photo opp's and appeared in the national press front pages almost every day. It was not 'ignored' by many.
And less of the personal shit.
 
M18CTID said:
I know it's 20% of all voters FFS! And one third of Leave voters having it as their single most important issue means two thirds didn't. Do the maths Vic. Oh, and having concerns about immigration doesn't automatically make someone a racist.
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It means only that two-thirds didn't have it as their MAIN reason for voting leave.

The distracting issue is that there are some on here who want to deny how big a factor it was at all. There's tons of research that says that is not so.

"Nearly three-quarters (73 per cent) of those who are worried about immigration voted Leave, compared with 36 per cent of those who did not identify this as a concern, the research found, showing the discrepancy in views about immigration between Remain and Leave voters."

Curiously, while there was an immediate spike in overt antipathy to immigrants (from a few), Brexit seems to have somewhat defused the issue, even though it's hardly reduced immigration.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
Sigh. Said it before, we could vote Labour in every Scottish seat and would still have a Tory government just now.
you seem to want me to empathise or something. Why? I want to rejoin the EU through an independent Scotland.
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Wouldn’t have in 2017.
 
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