Another new Brexit thread

[Vic]

F

Trawl mine if you like, out of the SM, CU and ECJ was always Brexity enough for me, throw in a FTA, and freedom to strike deals worldwide free of EU regulation and that'll do nicely.

I may regret asking but why do people expect the disputes mechanisms of such trade deals to be more acceptable than the ECJ (while we were EU members)? It will still be foreign judges.

What's the take on ISDS if we attempt to join CPTPP?

 

[BobKowalski]

I think that was at least part of the point.

There was a point other than a trade protectionist party in a non EU country would like a trade deal that creates higher trade and cultural barriers in its dealings with its neighbours? I get that we are looking for validation of the deal we have just made with the EU, I‘m just not convinced you guys thought through this particular endorsement.

Additionally it would be better to try and convince political parties and countries in our own Union on the merits of the deal rather than some political party in Norway. Personally, I would have thought the warmth and appreciation expressed by UK fishermen for the deal would have been the place to start.

Or maybe not.

 

[Vic]

They could trawl mine as well - they will keep finding this message:

"I certainly hope that there is a deal - but a deal that is appropriate to the UK having left the EU - like they have with other countries..."

This 'not Brexity enough' narrative that some seek to establish is a particularly weak attempt at revisionism by those just too sour to admit that a good outcome for the UK - and one which completely trashes their doom and gloom projections of 4 years - has been achieved.

Anyway, more interesting than that nonsense - I found this balanced POV from Scotland more interesting to read:

Brexit: Why Boris Johnson's trade deal with the EU is a boost to the Union and a blow to the SNP – Murdo Fraser MSP | The Scotsman

Balanced? Tory MSP praises Boris Johnson, despite not getting the frictionless trade he wanted. It's not exactly a "man bites dog" story, is it?

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

There was a point other than a trade protectionist party in a non EU country would like a trade deal that creates higher trade and cultural barriers in its dealings with its neighbours? I get that we are looking for validation of the deal we have just made with the EU, I‘m just not convinced you guys thought through this particular endorsement.

Additionally it would be better to try and convince political parties and countries in our own Union on the merits of the deal rather than some political party in Norway. Personally, I would have thought the warmth and appreciation expressed by UK fishermen for the deal would have been the place to start.

Or maybe not.

It's a fair point bob, but the other parties in the UK as ever are dancing around the issue to try and benefit themselves. I sometimes wonder if Boris and rees-mogg had a Trading Places style $1 bet that they could get the SNP to vote for no deal (against the EU). Most of the folk that for four years have been insisting it's all about stopping 'no deal' are about to see their arses by voting for just that. Blinded by hate.

 

[BobKowalski]

I found this summary of the deal to be more articulate than a lot of the denial you read on here - maybe it concurs with Norway's assessment and explains their need for 'consideration':

Robert Buckland: Brexit negotiation netted biggest trade and co-operation deal in world | This Is Wiltshire

"At 11pm on 31st December, we will take back control of our trade policy and leave the EU customs union and single market. We will take back control of our waters, with this treaty affirming British sovereignty over our vast marine wealth. We will take back control of our money by ending vast payments to the EU. We will take back control of our borders and will introduce our new points-based immigration system at the start of next year. Most importantly, the agreement provides for the UK to take back control of our laws, affording no role for EU law and no jurisdiction for the European Court of Justice.

This ambitious agreement is the first the EU has ever reached allowing zero tariffs and zero quotas. We will preserve the immense benefits of free trade for millions of people in the UK and across Europe. This deal also includes a commitment to maintaining high labour, environment and climate standards without giving the EU any say over our rules.

Many people said this deal could not be done or was impossible in the time available. This government has proved those views wrong. We have agreed the biggest trade and co-operation deal in the world, on a huge range of issues relevant to everyone in our country, in record time and in hugely challenging conditions."

It’s fluffy nonsense. Fine sounding fluffy nonsense, but still fluffy nonsense.

For starters it’s not particularly ambitious, agreeing to a swathe of non tariff barriers is not ‘preserving the immense benefits of free trade‘, nor is the fishing industry impressed with the ‘sovereignty of our immense marine wealth’.

It‘s not even the ‘biggest trade and co-operation deal in the world’. Th EU Single Market is surely bigger in size and scope. To be accurate we have just left the ‘biggest trade and co-operation deal in the world’ and replaced it with a smaller, much smaller one.

At least make some effort with the facts.

 

[Ban-jani]

Yes they are ahead in one recent poll after about 100 others this year where they’ve slowly caught up with the two main parties, and yes they’re very Lexit. I still wouldn’t call them Norway’s leading party. It would be like calling the Brexit Party Britain’s leading party based on a single poll just before the Euro elections.

I’ll take it all back if they win the election!

Nor would I, as we know, polling needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

[mcfc1632]

Delusional. The EU have given away nothing. We are fully committed to EU trade rules. The no deal threat achieved nothing. This deal could have been done by May 2 years ago - the reason it wasn't was Johnson and the ERG would not have supported it. We are rule takers.

You suggest that the No-Deal threat achieved nothing?

I am afraid that your understandable frustration that your predictions of 4 years have been proven to be utterly wrong appears to be making you miss the obvious.

16months ago, the EU enjoyed the position where the UK had been placed over a barrel by the hapless May/Robbins and they were looking forward to decades of UK vassalage controlled by the unfettered backstop she had offered up.

That changed when the UK electorate provided their assessment in the GE and then 'proper negotiations' were able to start - albeit from a position weakened by May/Robbins.

Fast forward less than a year and not only as the PD been binned and the increasingly desperate please of the EU for more extensions been ignored - but the EU have reached an agreement on: an ".....ambitious agreement - the first the EU has ever reached allowing zero tariffs and zero quotas. We will preserve the immense benefits of free trade for millions of people in the UK and across Europe."

Now they did this in record time - in fact an unbelievably short period given how long the EU normally takes to negotiate with 3rd party countries. What was the alternative and impending outcome that provided the motivation for them to achieve their biggest ever FTA in record time?

The threat of a No-Deal outcome of course

 

[Vic]

I found this summary of the deal to be more articulate than a lot of the denial you read on here - maybe it concurs with Norway's assessment and explains their need for 'consideration':

Robert Buckland: Brexit negotiation netted biggest trade and co-operation deal in world | This Is Wiltshire

"At 11pm on 31st December, we will take back control of our trade policy and leave the EU customs union and single market. We will take back control of our waters, with this treaty affirming British sovereignty over our vast marine wealth. We will take back control of our money by ending vast payments to the EU. We will take back control of our borders and will introduce our new points-based immigration system at the start of next year. Most importantly, the agreement provides for the UK to take back control of our laws, affording no role for EU law and no jurisdiction for the European Court of Justice.

This ambitious agreement is the first the EU has ever reached allowing zero tariffs and zero quotas. We will preserve the immense benefits of free trade for millions of people in the UK and across Europe. This deal also includes a commitment to maintaining high labour, environment and climate standards without giving the EU any say over our rules.

Many people said this deal could not be done or was impossible in the time available. This government has proved those views wrong. We have agreed the biggest trade and co-operation deal in the world, on a huge range of issues relevant to everyone in our country, in record time and in hugely challenging conditions."

Good grief. Today is obviously "quote Tory politicians on what a good deal this is" day.

I can't be arsed picking the bones out of all of it but really, "we have agreed the biggest trade and co-operation deal in the world"? Surely that's the one we're relinquishing. It's not even the EU's biggest free trade deal - isn't that with Japan (population twice the UK)?

 

[mcfc1632]

It's a fair point bob, but the other parties in the UK as ever are dancing around the issue to try and benefit themselves. I sometimes wonder if Boris and rees-mogg had a Trading Places style $1 bet that they could get the SNP to vote for no deal (against the EU). Most of the folk that for four years have been insisting it's all about stopping 'no deal' are about to see their arses by voting for just that. Blinded by hate.

The hypocrisy is quite delicious really

 

[BobKowalski]

It's a fair point bob, but the other parties in the UK as ever are dancing around the issue to try and benefit themselves. I sometimes wonder if Boris and rees-mogg had a Trading Places style $1 bet that they could get the SNP to vote for no deal (against the EU). Most of the folk that for four years have been insisting it's all about stopping 'no deal' are about to see their arses by voting for just that. Blinded by hate.

The SNP and Labour Scotland, oppose it. DUP in NI, oppose it. NI already under the EU economic writ is being softened up by Dublin with Erasmus and EHIC gift boxes.

And Brexiteers are, ‘oh look, a Norwegian political party likes the deal. Hurrah!’

The SNP are hardly dancing around the issue. They are using the weapons we keep handing them to beat our Union to death. This deal hives off NI and undermines our Union from within.

Still, Olaf the Reindeer man likes the deal, so all is well.

 

[mcfc1632]

It’s fluffy nonsense. Fine sounding fluffy nonsense, but still fluffy nonsense.

For starters it’s not particularly ambitious, agreeing to a swathe of non tariff barriers is not ‘preserving the immense benefits of free trade‘, nor is the fishing industry impressed with the ‘sovereignty of our immense marine wealth’.

It‘s not even the ‘biggest trade and co-operation deal in the world’. Th EU Single Market is surely bigger in size and scope. To be accurate we have just left the ‘biggest trade and co-operation deal in the world’ and replaced it with a smaller, much smaller one.

At least make some effort with the facts.

You seem to be making much effort to twist the facts - but you have a lot of motivation

I will just get on with being content and balanced

 

[Vic]

It's a fair point bob, but the other parties in the UK as ever are dancing around the issue to try and benefit themselves. I sometimes wonder if Boris and rees-mogg had a Trading Places style $1 bet that they could get the SNP to vote for no deal (against the EU). Most of the folk that for four years have been insisting it's all about stopping 'no deal' are about to see their arses by voting for just that. Blinded by hate.

No one voting against this deal is voting for no deal.

If I'm on a jury and I vote not guilty I'm not saying that no one committed the crime.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

F
I may regret asking but why do people expect the disputes mechanisms of such trade deals to be more acceptable than the ECJ (while we were EU members)? It will still be foreign judges.

What's the take on ISDS if we attempt to join CPTPP?

Because if we permitted the EU to have its own court to arbitrate any disputes, would be like asking your wifes lawyer to rule on the settlement
in your divorce case. I'd have thought this was a teensy weensy part of the
reason that we refused their request, and didn't think it needed explaining.
The subsequent arbiter is mutually agreed, which again, obviously, makes
sense.
I'll clarify the areas involved from Iceland to the Russian border as well,
if you like.

 

[BobKowalski]

You seem to be making much effort to twist the facts - but you have a lot of motivation

I will just get on with being content and balanced

No one is buying it, mate.

 

[mcfc1632]

And so the deal is confirmed by the EU:

EU chiefs sign post-Brexit UK trade deal (rte.ie)

and later today will be confirmed by the UK - all in all a good end to a bad year.

We can all now try to move on and seek to make the best of the opportunities provided by Brexit.

 

[BobKowalski]

And so the deal is confirmed by the EU:

EU chiefs sign post-Brexit UK trade deal (rte.ie)

and later today will be confirmed by the UK - all in all a good end to a bad year.

We can all now try to move on and seek to make the best of the opportunities provided by Brexit.

A list would be nice. Not a long one. Start small. I’ll put the kettle on.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

No one is buying it, mate.

Lol, you're not, but hey-ho.

 

[blueparrot]

It's a fair point bob, but the other parties in the UK as ever are dancing around the issue to try and benefit themselves. I sometimes wonder if Boris and rees-mogg had a Trading Places style $1 bet that they could get the SNP to vote for no deal (against the EU). Most of the folk that for four years have been insisting it's all about stopping 'no deal' are about to see their arses by voting for just that. Blinded by hate.

Thats just twisting the reason all the other parts of the UK and the different parties are voting against the deal. Just so you can make a point on a forum and you know it is. Meanwhile Westminster will ignore another agreement by ignoring a devovled parliament voting against the bill. Then wonder why the UK is fracturing in front of their very eyes. Unionist party indeed.

The "Sewel convention" of devolved consent holds that the UK government would "not normally" legislate across areas which the administrations in Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast are responsible for without the express consent of the devolved legislatures.
However, the Brexit process has seen UK ministers press ahead with several pieces of key legislation rejected by MSPs, arguing that departure from the EU is not a normal set of circumstances.

 

[Vic]

You suggest that the No-Deal threat achieved nothing?

I am afraid that your understandable frustration that your predictions of 4 years have been proven to be utterly wrong appears to be making you miss the obvious.

16months ago, the EU enjoyed the position where the UK had been placed over a barrel by the hapless May/Robbins and they were looking forward to decades of UK vassalage controlled by the unfettered backstop she had offered up.

That changed when the UK electorate provided their assessment in the GE and then 'proper negotiations' were able to start - albeit from a position weakened by May/Robbins.

Fast forward less than a year and not only as the PD been binned and the increasingly desperate please of the EU for more extensions been ignored - but the EU have reached an agreement on: an ".....ambitious agreement - the first the EU has ever reached allowing zero tariffs and zero quotas. We will preserve the immense benefits of free trade for millions of people in the UK and across Europe."

Now they did this in record time - in fact an unbelievably short period given how long the EU normally takes to negotiate with 3rd party countries. What was the alternative and impending outcome that provided the motivation for them to achieve their biggest ever FTA in record time?

The threat of a No-Deal outcome of course

I'm put in mind of the Duke of Wellington, "I don't know what effect these men will have on the enemy, but by God, they terrify me". Or even Kruschev with missiles in Cuba. No Deal would be MAD but, faced with an enemy willing to pull their own house down, discretion may be the better part of valour.

Without remotely suggesting that the UK concessions (fish, lpf etc etc) made the difference, I do wonder what you think the EU "moved" on (whether "red lines" or just the sort of negotiating stance you'd start with).

 

[Metal Biker]

Why would the oil in the waters of an independent country be allowed to be taken by the English?

Since the oil is in the territorial waters of the Shetland Islands and they have stated their intention to remain in the UK union upon Scotish Independence.