Another new Brexit thread

[Metal Biker]

Welp, the EU have approved the UK-EU Post-Brexit Trade Agreement.

WIll our EU loving MP's really decide to vote against a deal that the EU has arranged?

 

[Vic]

Because if we permitted the EU to have its own court to arbitrate any disputes, would be like asking your wifes lawyer to rule on the settlement
in your divorce case. I'd have thought this was a teensy weensy part of the
reason that we refused their request, and didn't think it needed explaining.
The subsequent arbiter is mutually agreed, which again, obviously, makes
sense.
I'll clarify the areas involved from Iceland to the Russian border as well,
if you like.

I think you missed my careful qualifier about the ECJ, "while we were EU members".

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Thats just twisting the reason all the other parts of the UK and the different parties are voting against the deal. Just so you can make a point on a forum and you know it is. Meanwhile Westminster will ignore another agreement by ignoring a devovled parliament voting against the bill. Then wonder why the UK is fracturing in front of their very eyes. Unionist party indeed.

The "Sewel convention" of devolved consent holds that the UK government would "not normally" legislate across areas which the administrations in Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast are responsible for without the express consent of the devolved legislatures.
However, the Brexit process has seen UK ministers press ahead with several pieces of key legislation rejected by MSPs, arguing that departure from the EU is not a normal set of circumstances.

Indeed, but as the SNP would mobilise anything they can to support their single issue agenda anyway, this isn't 'normal' as they are a party of protest rather than governance. The fact is they are about to vote against the EU (technically) risking a no deal rather than the deal the EU want, while at the sane time claiming to be pro EU. Their independent rejoiner ambition is a non-starter economically, as well as because the EU don't want them in terms of cost, and also because admitting an independent Scotland opens the door to the EU recognising regional devolution in Spain. That won't happen as Madrid is (just about) a net contributor to the EU, and one of the more disturbingly federalist things the EU did in recent years was send EU personel to assist Spanish police in brutally putting the basque people back in their box. In short, Scotland was a useful lever as was the Irish situation to the EU while they were negotiating - now they have an agreement they can live with, they don't care about Scotland or the GFA all of a sudden.

 

[west didsblue]

A list would be nice. Not a long one. Start small. I’ll put the kettle on.

Just to help them I’ll start...

- £100k of Stilton to Japan.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Welp, the EU have approved the UK-EU Post-Brexit Trade Agreement.

WIll our EU loving MP's really decide to vote against a deal that the EU has arranged?

Yes, and show themselves for what they really are. It was never about 'a deal' or 'taking no deal off the table' as they claimed. They were banking on no deal to further their own petty agendas and it's backfired.

 

[Metal Biker]

Yes, and show themselves for what they really are. It was never about 'a deal' or 'taking no deal off the table' as they claimed. They were banking on no deal to further their own petty agendas and it's backfired.

Any MP that votes against approving the deal, not because they have concerns about it or believe it will denigrate the country, but because it is their last defiant stamp of "remainism", should be made to resign.

 

[Vic]

Since the oil is in the territorial waters of the Shetland Islands and they have stated their intention to remain in the UK union upon Scotish Independence.

Where did you read that or is this another thing that you just knew?

 

[mcfc1632]

Just watching the start of the day at the HoC

A bit muddled and chaotic - but how refreshing it is to no longer have to see that preening fuckwit Bercow showboating

Anyway - an important and historic day ahead - what a long way democracy has come in 15months - since the grubby days when the likes of Greive and Soubry were enjoying their 15mins of relevance

 

[blueparrot]

Since the oil is in the territorial waters of the Shetland Islands and they have stated their intention to remain in the UK union upon Scotish Independence.

No, they have said they want autonomy, similar to the Isle of Man, orthe Faroe Islands with Denmark. They haven't rule out that being as part of the either the UK or and Indepndent Scotland. In Fact the SNP are far more sympathetic to that arrangement than Westminster would be.

"There is nothing to stop Shetland having greater autonomy after Scottish independence, just as the Faroe Islands have autonomy from Denmark. In fact, the SNP have long been sympathetic to island self-government. In the 1987 General Election, the pro-autonomy Orkney Movement won 15% of the vote, helped by the SNP’s decision to stand aside in their favour. Contrary to the assertions of Iain Martin, the passing of the Shetland Council motion on “exploring options” for self-determination does not spell a move towards the islands seeking union with England, after a successful indyref2. Quite the opposite, in fact."

FACT CHECK: Do Shetland Islands really want to break away from Scotland?

CLAIM

www.thenational.scot

 

[ganganvince]

Where did you read that or is this another thing that you just knew?

Investigate similar deal to Channel isles

Shetland Islands vote to explore independence from Scotland

The council argued that funding cuts to the island, alongside centralised decision-making, are reasons to look into independence.

news.sky.com

 

[Vic]

Any MP that votes against approving the deal, not because they have concerns about it or believe it will denigrate the country, but because it is their last defiant stamp of "remainism", should be made to resign.

So much for the sovereignty of Parliament.

 

[Metal Biker]

No, they have said they want autonomy, similar to the Isle of Man, orthe Faroe Islands with Denmark. They haven't rule out that being as part of the either the UK or and Indepndent Scotland. In Fact the SNP are far more sympathetic to that arrangement than Westminster would be.

"There is nothing to stop Shetland having greater autonomy after Scottish independence, just as the Faroe Islands have autonomy from Denmark. In fact, the SNP have long been sympathetic to island self-government. In the 1987 General Election, the pro-autonomy Orkney Movement won 15% of the vote, helped by the SNP’s decision to stand aside in their favour. Contrary to the assertions of Iain Martin, the passing of the Shetland Council motion on “exploring options” for self-determination does not spell a move towards the islands seeking union with England, after a successful indyref2. Quite the opposite, in fact."

FACT CHECK: Do Shetland Islands really want to break away from Scotland?

CLAIM

www.thenational.scot

That talks about breaking away from Scotland, which isn't what I said.

I said that the Shetlands have re-iterated their intention that should Scotland choose to be independent from the UK, the Shetlands will exercise their rights to hold a referendum on membership with Scotland and all polls have shown that it would result in them leaving Scotland.

In either case, the oil is not Scotland's and some people need to be educated about that fact. Surprised you didn't educate him, to be honest.

 

[mcfc1632]

Yes, and show themselves for what they really are. It was never about 'a deal' or 'taking no deal off the table' as they claimed. They were banking on no deal to further their own petty agendas and it's backfired.

Talking about 'backfiring'.........

I often think about just how close the UK came to a dreadful Brexit outcome - one that would have hamstrung the UK and secured them in a state of vassalage to the EU for decades to come.

Just think - if certain key players had backed May's appalling deal....... Makes me shudder

Inadvertent perhaps - but I will be forever grateful for their 'contribution' over the years

 

[BobKowalski]

Just watching the start of the day at the HoC

A bit muddled and chaotic - but how refreshing it is to no longer have to see that preening fuckwit Bercow showboating

Anyway - an important and historic day ahead - what a long way democracy has come in 15months - since the grubby days when the likes of Greive and Soubry were enjoying their 15mins of relevance

Yeah, one day to analyse, debate and vote on a deal. The Govt even had to override its own rules on treaty ratification as it did with the WA.

And you hold up this as a shining example of democracy?

Even by your low standards that is a poor attempt at turd polishing.

 

[mcfc1632]

Indeed, but as the SNP would mobilise anything they can to support their single issue agenda anyway, this isn't 'normal' as they are a party of protest rather than governance. The fact is they are about to vote against the EU (technically) risking a no deal rather than the deal the EU want, while at the sane time claiming to be pro EU. Their independent rejoiner ambition is a non-starter economically, as well as because the EU don't want them in terms of cost, and also because admitting an independent Scotland opens the door to the EU recognising regional devolution in Spain. That won't happen as Madrid is (just about) a net contributor to the EU, and one of the more disturbingly federalist things the EU did in recent years was send EU personel to assist Spanish police in brutally putting the basque people back in their box. In short, Scotland was a useful lever as was the Irish situation to the EU while they were negotiating - now they have an agreement they can live with, they don't care about Scotland or the GFA all of a sudden.

As was mentioned in that article I posted earlier - the shallow position of the SNP is laid bare:

"From a Scottish perspective, there is a huge amount to be pleased with in what has now been agreed. Given that the Scottish government were adamant that a deal was vital and that no-deal would be disaster, it might be expected therefore that the First Minister and her colleagues would have welcomed Thursday’s announcement, even grudgingly. But, sadly and predictably, political and constitutional considerations have once again outweighed what is in Scotland’s best interests, and the SNP, at both Westminster and Holyrood, will today try to vote this deal down.

We should be clear what exactly this means. The choice today is not between this deal and another deal, far less this deal and remaining in the EU – these bridges were crossed in the distant past. The choice now is between this deal and no-deal. The consequence of voting this deal down is that the UK leaves the EU tomorrow at midnight without a deal, with catastrophic consequences for our economy. And yet that is exactly what SNP MPs and MSPs will be voting for, simply to make a political point.

There can be little doubt that Nicola Sturgeon and her colleagues were banking on a no-deal outcome, hoping that this would drive support for Scottish separation higher. That they were wrong-footed by Thursday’s announcement from the Prime Minister was evident by the confused and incoherent messages coming out from senior SNP politicians.

They latched on to the issue of seed potato sales into Europe, without having done the research that showed that just five per cent of Scottish seed potato exports go to the EU. They tried to make an issue of the UK withdrawal from the Erasmus student exchange scheme, not realising that the replacement Turing scheme will be better funded and have a wider reach."

 

[Metal Biker]

Talking about 'backfiring'.........

I often think about just how close the UK came to a dreadful Brexit outcome - one that would have hamstrung the UK and secured them i a state of vassalage to the EU for decades to come.

Just think - if certain key players had backed May's appalling deal....... Makes me shudder

Inadvertent perhaps - but I will be forever grateful for their 'contribution' over the years

I shudder at the fact that at one point, due to brexit fatigue, some of us, including me, were trying to find positives in the WA just to bring an end to the whole saga. Odin be praised for December 2019.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Yeah, one day to analyse, debate and vote on a deal. The Govt even had to override its own rules on treaty ratification as it did with the WA.

And you hold up this as a shining example of democracy?

Even by your low standards that is a poor attempt at turd polishing.

Tbh, everyone on here seems ro think they can understand and form an opinion on the deal by now, so surely our MP's are at least as capable as us in the brexit thread of digesting the deal and forming an opinion by today? :-)

 

[dave_blue12]

So much for the sovereignty of Parliament.

So much shit talked about sovereignty and democracy on this thread by people who have no understanding whatsoever of the concepts.

Immature men who fit the facts to suit their distorted view of the world.

The human race is cursed by men who never grow up. Every forum you care to look at is inhabited by such people exercising their stupidity.

 

[Metal Biker]

As was mentioned in that article I posted earlier - the shallow position of the SNP is laid bare:

"From a Scottish perspective, there is a huge amount to be pleased with in what has now been agreed. Given that the Scottish government were adamant that a deal was vital and that no-deal would be disaster, it might be expected therefore that the First Minister and her colleagues would have welcomed Thursday’s announcement, even grudgingly. But, sadly and predictably, political and constitutional considerations have once again outweighed what is in Scotland’s best interests, and the SNP, at both Westminster and Holyrood, will today try to vote this deal down.

We should be clear what exactly this means. The choice today is not between this deal and another deal, far less this deal and remaining in the EU – these bridges were crossed in the distant past. The choice now is between this deal and no-deal. The consequence of voting this deal down is that the UK leaves the EU tomorrow at midnight without a deal, with catastrophic consequences for our economy. And yet that is exactly what SNP MPs and MSPs will be voting for, simply to make a political point.

There can be little doubt that Nicola Sturgeon and her colleagues were banking on a no-deal outcome, hoping that this would drive support for Scottish separation higher. That they were wrong-footed by Thursday’s announcement from the Prime Minister was evident by the confused and incoherent messages coming out from senior SNP politicians.

They latched on to the issue of seed potato sales into Europe, without having done the research that showed that just five per cent of Scottish seed potato exports go to the EU. They tried to make an issue of the UK withdrawal from the Erasmus student exchange scheme, not realising that the replacement Turing scheme will be better funded and have a wider reach."

It puts her in a sticky wicket; stay part of the UK which has a comprehensive trade and co-operation deal with the EU and retained sovereignty over it's own laws, or leave the UK, become independent and then have to abandon any trade or agreement with the EU until they have managed to establish a deal themselves or been approved to rejoin, whereupon they lose all notions of being independent as an EU member.

It's a much harder sell, especially to those in Scotland who wish to remain in the UK and voted to leave and approve of this UK-EU deal. How will the SNP placate them?

 

[Metal Biker]

Tbh, everyone on here seems ro think they can understand and form an opinion on the deal by now, so surely our MP's are at least as capable as us brexit thread of digesting the deal and forming an opinion by today? :-)

Only if your opinion is "it's a disaster!". Then you don't have to bother reading it at all.