Arsenal (H) Post Match Thread

[CatMan]

Great shot.

To my mind, the problem - this being a clear instance of it - is that 21st Century technology is being applied in relation to 19th century rules, and it doesn't quite fit.

The laws of football (Law 11) refer to offside in terms of being offside 'the moment the ball is played' - but when you have the ability to slow it down to the point where you can move it on at a speed of 25 frames per second, it becomes clear that 'the moment the ball is played' is actually an ongoing process.

When a player plays a pass, what happens is this. First, his foot makes contact with the ball. Then, the air inside the ball compresses momentarily on the impact. At this time, the player's foot is still in contact with the ball. Then the ball regains its normal shape. The player's foot is still in contact in the ball, moving in the direction of the pass. Then the ball travels on its way, finally ceasing to have contact with the player's foot. When you are using cameras with speeds of 20/25 frames a second, these actions will all told occupy two or three frames. In other words, the ball is in contact with the foot of the player making the pass for one, maybe two, maybe three frames. That is enough time for a player moving forward at speed to go from a position of being level to a position of being half a yard offside. If the defender is stepping up at the same time, it makes the offside margin even greater.

But what is the actual 'moment' that the ball is played? The rules do not say. Is it at the point where the foot of the player who makes the pass first comes into contact with the ball? Is it when the ball ceases to have contact? A player can be offside or not depending on which interpretation of the rules you apply. The law was drawn up at a time where it was technologically not possible to have the sort of debate we are having now, and 'the moment the ball is played' was clear enough for all. But now that we do have that technology, and now that we can slow it down to the exact point at which the through ball is played, we may have to be a bit more precise about what we mean by 'when the ball is played' - especially if VAR is introduced in this country.

In the real world of course, the linesman makes a judgment on a split-second basis and sometimes they will (judging their decisions with the benefit of slo-mo moving at 25 frames a second) they will get it wrong. If VAR is going to be introduced, the result may be to replace one contentious, fallible means of deciding if a player is offside with another.

Great post fella. To be honest the laws are poorly written and offside is always contentious. Probably sensors in the ball and GPS tags on shirts are not far away. They'll have to do away with counting parts of the body that can play the ball being offside and just go off GPS centre of mass for positioning. It's a few years off probably so we'll have to suffer Wenger's moans for some time yet.

 

[BluessinceHydeRoad]

In that case Silva was almost certainly onside.

I don't think we need the "almost" if the decision depends when contact is first made with the ball.

 

[Dribble]

Great post fella. To be honest the laws are poorly written and offside is always contentious. Probably sensors in the ball and GPS tags on shirts are not far away. They'll have to do away with counting parts of the body that can play the ball being offside and just go off GPS centre of mass for positioning. It's a few years off probably so we'll have to suffer Wenger's moans for some time yet.

The technology has been here for a long time. However the walking coffin that is Blatter solely decided against it on the basis, it would ruin opposing views during pub banter in the aftermath. With football now being a multi-billion pound industry, you could make that one up.

If we have goal-line technology, why not go the whole hog and have offside technology & officially use video replays as they're now trialling in MLS.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-so...o-reconsider-technology-idUKTRE65S1O320100629

 

[neel]

Great shot.

To my mind, the problem - this being a clear instance of it - is that 21st Century technology is being applied in relation to 19th century rules, and it doesn't quite fit.

The laws of football (Law 11) refer to offside in terms of being offside 'the moment the ball is played' - but when you have the ability to slow it down to the point where you can move it on at a speed of 25 frames per second, it becomes clear that 'the moment the ball is played' is actually an ongoing process.

When a player plays a pass, what happens is this. First, his foot makes contact with the ball. Then, the air inside the ball compresses momentarily on the impact. At this time, the player's foot is still in contact with the ball. Then the ball regains its normal shape. The player's foot is still in contact in the ball, moving in the direction of the pass. Then the ball travels on its way, finally ceasing to have contact with the player's foot. When you are using cameras with speeds of 20/25 frames a second, these actions will all told occupy two or three frames. In other words, the ball is in contact with the foot of the player making the pass for one, maybe two, maybe three frames. That is enough time for a player moving forward at speed to go from a position of being level to a position of being half a yard offside. If the defender is stepping up at the same time, it makes the offside margin even greater.

But what is the actual 'moment' that the ball is played? The rules do not say. Is it at the point where the foot of the player who makes the pass first comes into contact with the ball? Is it when the ball ceases to have contact? A player can be offside or not depending on which interpretation of the rules you apply. The law was drawn up at a time where it was technologically not possible to have the sort of debate we are having now, and 'the moment the ball is played' was clear enough for all. But now that we do have that technology, and now that we can slow it down to the exact point at which the through ball is played, we may have to be a bit more precise about what we mean by 'when the ball is played' - especially if VAR is introduced in this country.

In the real world of course, the linesman makes a judgment on a split-second basis and sometimes they will (judging their decisions with the benefit of slo-mo moving at 25 frames a second) they will get it wrong. If VAR is going to be introduced, the result may be to replace one contentious, fallible means of deciding if a player is offside with another.

Remove offside rule and end this shit :)

 

[Chippy_boy]

I came on this thread to show how Silva was *definitely* offside, and I have to say I am surprised.

He is in fact offside, but it is much closer than I thought. And taking this "when did Fernandino actually play the ball" question into account, it varies from *just* off, to quite clearly off, depending on whether you go for the moment of first contact with Ferna's boot, or a tiny bit later than that. Either which way, Silva was off.


This is *before* Fernandino kicks the ball. Silva is on, but Ferna hasn't touched the ball yet. You can just make out his right boot peaking out from behind his left leg as he prepares to play the ball.

This is the first point Ferna touches the ball. Notice the ball has not moved yet. Silva is already (very marginally) off.

This is the point the ball clearly moves. Silva is even further off.

And finally, this is the point they choose to freeze the frame. The ball has long departed from Ferna's boot, and of course Silva is even more off by then.

The point though, is it was mighty close. A travesty of a refereeing decision, it was NOT.

 

[kaz7]

Can we just agree it's about time we didn't get stiffed from the official for a change

 

[Chippy_boy]

Can we just agree it's about time we didn't get stiffed from the official for a change

Apart from the pen on Sterling in the first half ;-)

 

[OB1]

I came on this thread to show how Silva was *definitely* offside, and I have to say I am surprised.

He is in fact offside, but it is much closer than I thought. And taking this "when did Fernandino actually play the ball" question into account, it varies from *just* off, to quite clearly off, depending on whether you go for the moment of first contact with Ferna's boot, or a tiny bit later than that. Either which way, Silva was off.


This is *before* Fernandino kicks the ball. Silva is on, but Ferna hasn't touched the ball yet. You can just make out his right boot peaking out from behind his left leg as he prepares to play the ball.

This is the first point Ferna touches the ball. Silva is already (very marginally) off.

This is the point the ball clearly moves. Silva is even further off.

And finally, this is the point they choose to freeze the frame. The ball has long departed from Ferna's boot, and of course Silva is even more off by then.

@Prestwich_Blue : I don't think he was.

The point though, is it was mighty close. A travesty of a refereeing decision, it was NOT.

Nice work.

Off or on, there's no question that it was a marginal decision and one some will go for you and some against when that is the case.

 

[kaz7]

Apart from the pen on Sterling in the first half ;-)

Can't win them all lol

 

[Chippy_boy]

Nice work.

Off or on, there's no question that it was a marginal decision and one some will go for you and some against when that is the case.

Yes.

The one thing it does demonstrate is that Wenger is a ****. But we all knew that already.