Assist the refs: swap cards for a transparent points system

[es1]

that system far too compliated for an official to assess and track in play

you appear to have descibed songs tackle on yaya as denial of an obvious goal scoring opportunity, is that what you believe or was that a mistake??

going off your system I'd class it as 'grade 1' as it was not in a dangerous position

OK, depending on the ref's view and opinion, 4 or 7. At worst, going in for a tackle leading with your knee is flipping dangerous and therefore "threatening conduct" (7) the way I saw it. Or at best, a very clumsy challenge (4).


The crux of the matter is that refs will still see what they want to see, but they now can't send off Boyata for a mistimed tackle in the first 10 minutes, Derry for stroking Young's arm, and can't send off Kompany for a messy but ultimately clean tackle, no matter how many feet he used (one, for the record) or how politely Rooney shouts at the ref (2, mild dissent).

I think some are overcomplicating the complexity of this.

It's already too complicated for a ref to keep track of how many innocuous fouls Cahill has committed, or how many of utd's players have taken it in turns to kick SWP really hard so that eventually he's injured. Not sure you could stop that happening, but we'd see the number who had committed grade 3/4/5 offences against him and one or two might also be "on a 9" and so treading carefully. You could then accumulate points, not cards, over a season, which would see Cahill banned every so often for being a dirty little twat who somehow never gets booked, and Cattermole banned every few games, which he does anyway.

Is it really that more complicated than remembering all the laws of the game, or understanding offside, or prescribing a list of mandatory yellow card card that some refs don't give if the player is on a second yellow and wearing an AON logo on his shirt?

If you need to simplify the system, just grade every incident from 1 to 8 by yourself and make sure you let us know what you decided afterwards. If we have a problem with that decision we have to decide whether we scream at your for it and pick up another 4pts or just take it on the chin and get on with the game.

I might at some point get really bored and apply these rules over a match for one player and see what I come out with.

to be consistent you need to use the wording used in the 'Laws of the Game' which gives guidance to refs for what should be a warning/yellow/red as without this, it's confusing

careless, reckless, dangerous etc

the current system works well imo, refs, at all levels, can identify fouls and misconduct easily enough and recognise approriate punishments.

what you're really suggesting a rule change to prevent DOGSO and certain types of tackle being automatic reds cards, a fair opinion to have, and one that fifa are looking into (the issue of automatic red card for dogso in the penalty area is to be considered - not the tackling mind!)

overall i just think your system for grading fouls/misconduct is a more complicated version of what a ref does now, he sees an incident and grades it on its severity and puniches the player(s) appropriately, the only thing your offers that the current system doesnt if the opportunity to let players/managers know how close a player is to be getting sent off/booked however, this information can usually be gleaned by watching how the ref interacts with a player anyway

 

[christian.russell]

I think that it is a good idea but far too confusing. Instead I reckon there should be 4 cards.
So it goes let's say the colours are green and blue. It would go green - yellow - blue - red. As you sometimes get yellow for a petty foul, and then later on another petty foul, and suddenly you are off after doing like nothing. So for as a warning get a green. Then sometimes you see a bad challenge which is touch and go between yellow and red you get a blue..

Then 2 yellows is a red, 4 greens is a red, 2 greens and a yellow is a red, and 1 blue and a green is a red.

Kinda complicated but I think it would work well. :)

 

[baldmosher]

overall i just think your system for grading fouls/misconduct is a more complicated version of what a ref does now, he sees an incident and grades it on its severity and puniches the player(s) appropriately, the only thing your offers that the current system doesnt if the opportunity to let players/managers know how close a player is to be getting sent off/booked however, this information can usually be gleaned by watching how the ref interacts with a player anyway

I'd argue that it's no more complicated at all, but I would say that, as it's my system :-)

Yes you can probably glean most of the above from the ref vs player interactions, I do accept that, and I've seen a few times (particularly in Europa matches) when a player was going to get booked "for nowt" as soon as he made yet another needless tackle after his 4 priors were quite visibly pointed out by the ref

The current system also doesn't allow for varying severity and the above 4-card system from Chris would also work very well, although it's basically the same system anyway - originally I went for 4 grades but as I began to define them it soon became obvious I was limiting the scope.

I suppose the real problem is that the English refs apply the FIFA guidelines at best inconsistently, at worst however they feel like applying them at the time (or have been instructed to apply them by Rooney or perhaps some Singaporean betting magnate, or whoever). The FA don't seem to have any kind of redress system in place when a ref is consistently misapplying the guidelines (or apparently bent, re: Clattenburg's miraculously rescinded ban when he challenged their decision), nor do the FA seem to care one jot beyond their "respect" campaign.

(For the record, I don't believe the refs covertly fix the match results, but I have seen enough evidence with my own eyes to believe they overtly influence them. It might be something so simple as the odds on the number of red cards in a match, given Foy's decision to send off VK but not to send off Giggs, but in any case, it's all very fishy. Especially as it doesn't seem to happen so much in Europa matches, but did seem to happen in the EPL and UCL)

 

[the-ecstacy-of-eight]

So how big is this scoreboard that shows all of your points?

But seriously, do you honestly think that this is a workable system? As fans we get frustrated when refs "see" challenges differently to us with the current system of just four options open to them -
a) no foul
b) foul no card
c) yellow card
d) red card
and your suggestion is more options? How will that make it simpler for referees to not annoy us any more than they already do?

Ref - I gave that foul a grade 4
Fans - No way, that was at least a 7
...etc...etc...etc... more options simply give more permutations for us to be amazed by their choices.

The system isn't the thing that need fixing, it's worked for over a century hasn't it (but maybe you disagree?); it's the implementation of the current system which is in need of changing. Referees obviously need some form of help due to the pace and the cheating nature of many players ...(ie video technology, which we also have already and which is successfully being applied at present in many sports)... and the process for retrospective action taken when referees make mistakes ...(ie a transparent and independent panel who publish their decisions and their reasoning for said decisions).

Whatever alterations are made in this area of the game I fear that we will never be able to get inside the head of particular referees allowing us to fully understand why specific teams or players seem to get away with consistent fouling during a game whilst other players and teams get shown cards.

I have no groundbreaking new scheme, but I also know that your idea is simply not workable. Sorry.

 

[es1]

So how big is this scoreboard that shows all of your points?

But seriously, do you honestly think that this is a workable system? As fans we get frustrated when refs "see" challenges differently to us with the current system of just four options open to them -
a) no foul
b) foul no card
c) yellow card
d) red card
and your suggestion is more options? How will that make it simpler for referees to not annoy us any more than they already do?

Ref - I gave that foul a grade 4
Fans - No way, that was at least a 7
...etc...etc...etc... more options simply give more permutations for us to be amazed by their choices.

The system isn't the thing that need fixing, it's worked for over a century hasn't it (but maybe you disagree?); it's the implementation of the current system which is in need of changing. Referees obviously need some form of help due to the pace and the cheating nature of many players ...(ie video technology, which we also have already and which is successfully being applied at present in many sports)... and the process for retrospective action taken when referees make mistakes ...(ie a transparent and independent panel who publish their decisions and their reasoning for said decisions).

Whatever alterations are made in this area of the game I fear that we will never be able to get inside the head of particular referees allowing us to fully understand why specific teams or players seem to get away with consistent fouling during a game whilst other players and teams get shown cards.

I have no groundbreaking new scheme, but I also know that your idea is simply not workable. Sorry.

This is the correct solution!

 

[SkyBlueFlux]

I understand what you're attempting to achieve with this system. You're just attempting to reduce the impact that the game's 'grey areas' have. Whilst this is probably an area of the game which could be improved upon, I think a 10 grade system is over the top and too saturated with numbers. It'd complicate game data and also put extra work on the shoulders of the referees. It might seem simple to you or I, but football is so popular because even the most dead-headed fans can understand everything that goes on.

If you ask me, there's one grey area that needs to be worked upon above all others and that's the denial of a goal scoring opportunity. As soon as this happens and a man has been sent off, it effectively renders the game a null competition, as we saw to our detriment in the Utd v QPR game.

I think the rule should be amended as thus:

If a player denies what is seen to be a clear goal scoring opportunity, then a penalty/free kick is awarded and the offender is given an 'orange' card.

The orange card has the same effect as the yellow card whilst in game, however a one game suspension is applied. The player thus gets to stay on the field (as if on a yellow) but will miss the next game.

This suspension could be reviewed retrospectively upon appeal.

I honestly think that's the only change we need at the moment.

 

[the-ecstacy-of-eight]

...half the people who watch (and play for that matter) football are dullards and would have serious difficulty understanding or remembering that system.

...It might seem simple to you or I, but football is so popular because even the most dead-headed fans can understand everything that goes on.

Could you be a little more condescending please?
The tiny little minds of us mere mortals might then be able to take onboard your ideas and glean the necessary understanding required to see your new masterplan for football as workable.

"You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar"

 

[SkyBlueFlux]

...half the people who watch (and play for that matter) football are dullards and would have serious difficulty understanding or remembering that system.

...It might seem simple to you or I, but football is so popular because even the most dead-headed fans can understand everything that goes on.

Could you be a little more condescending please?
The tiny little minds of us mere mortals might then be able to take onboard your ideas and glean the necessary understanding required to see your new masterplan for football as workable.

"You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar"

As I said, the system proposed wouldn't work and it's best to keep things as they are because simplicity is often the best route. Not just because people won't understand it, but because it makes the game more difficult to officiate.

What you've quoted me saying doesn't assume anything about the people who watch football, it only implies that anybody could understand it if they wanted to.

I apologise for indicating that there might be people in the world who don't want to put effort into learning a complicated sport. However, I would point you in the direction of cricket. There's a vast number of people who don't give it the time of day because "it's confusing".

In my opinion it's not condescending at all, it's realistic. I'm only assuming there are people of low intelligence in the world. Which I'm quite sure there are.

 

[baldmosher]

I have now abandoned my pursuance of this scheme in favour of a simple broadening of the post-match incident review system that allows the FA to issue an automatic retrospective 1 match ban to cheating little twats who dive to win a penalty, like Young, and a retrospective yellow card if they didn't win a penalty, and also to award a retrospective goal to wholehome honest players who get brazenly fouled in the box three times over two games yet don't win a penalty, like Balotelli (or, in fact, after last weekend's debacle, Tevez).