Attacks in Paris

RichardDunneOwnGoal said:
This is the sheer power of ideology. It can motivate people to do utterly inhumane things to other human beings. It can make rational people do entirely irrational things.
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Honestly, I believe being sane and being of a mind set to carry out an atrocity like any of the ISIS claimed attacks over the last year are completely incompatible and mutually exclusive. Maybe that's why we're looking at it differently. I'd point out again though that there's plenty of massacres carried out all around the world that aren't claimed by ISIS or any other religious extremist group.
 
RichardDunneOwnGoal said:
Their ideology is an 'excuse' rather than the reason - in the same way Nazism was an excuse, rather than the reason, for the Holocaust?

Do you see how warped your rationale is?
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The doctrine of Aryan supremacy was used by Hitler and others to carry out their political ends. I'm not saying they're identical but there are plenty of parallels.
 
aguero93:20 said:
No I'm an Irish Catholic by birth and an Atheist by choice. I fail to see what impact my choice of or lack of faith would have on my right to an opinion on this forum and this thread though. Although according to you it seems to affect my ability to mass murder.
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I just don't understand your motive for trying to deflect the blame from Islam here?

You quote America in your logic..but America has the most fucked up gun laws on the planet..if we had the same in the UK then it's quite possible that every depressed spotty skater kid in the country would take a shotgun to his school on a hormonal whim

A completely different subject to these killings and completely unrelated

These people killed in the name of Islam..this is a stone cold fact..yet here you are..swearing black is white and getting pissed off when folks think you've had a knock on the head
 
aguero93:20 said:
Honestly, I believe being sane and being of a mind set to carry out an atrocity like any of the ISIS claimed attacks over the last year are completely incompatible and mutually exclusive. Maybe that's why we're looking at it differently. I'd point out again though that there's plenty of massacres carried out all around the world that aren't claimed by ISIS or any other religious extremist group.
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Well you're entirely wrong.

Sane people can bring themselves to kill and murder if they believe what they're doing is inherently right. It's not that uncommon, and you're right to point out that religion needn't be a part of that belief system which is central to said gruesome acts.

So why are you able to recognise that, but can't do it in respect of an ideology born out of religion?

Is it cowardice? Political correctness? Both?
 
IanBishopsHaircut said:
I just don't understand your motive for trying to deflect the blame from Islam here?

You quote America in your logic..but America has the most fucked up gun laws on the planet..if we had the same in the UK then it's quite possible that every depressed spotty skater kid in the country would take a shotgun to his school on a hormonal whim

A completely different subject to these killings and completely unrelated

These people killed in the name of Islam..this is a stone cold fact..yet here you are..swearing black is white and getting pissed off when folks think you've had a knock on the head
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I'm not getting pissed off at all. You're the one throwing around accusations.

Here's the way I see it.

There's plenty of peaceful, moderate Muslims in the world.

There's plenty of sick people in the world that aren't Muslim.

So maybe it's far too simplistic to lay all the blame at the door of Islam.

Now if you want to talk about religious and political extremism in general being a cancer in our world I'm all ears. If you want to talk about the need for more social freedom, women's rights and equality in the developing world the same. But I'm not buying into the bogeyman bullshit, sorry.
 
RichardDunneOwnGoal said:
Well you're entirely wrong.

Sane people can bring themselves to kill and murder if they believe what they're doing is inherently right. It's not that uncommon, and you're right to point out that religion needn't be a part of that belief system which is central to said gruesome acts.

So why are you able to recognise that, but can't do it in respect of an ideology born out of religion?

Is it cowardice? Political correctness? Both?
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I'd see their belief that what they were doing was inherently right as proof of their insanity. So would a court of law incidentally, you cannot be prosecuted for a crime if it's shown that you weren't capable of understanding that your actions were wrong.
 
aguero93:20 said:
The doctrine of Aryan supremacy was used by Hitler and others to carry out their political ends. I'm not saying they're identical but there are plenty of parallels.
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Wait, so are you recognising that ideology can be central to motivations to commit atrocities?

Your rationale is completely unravelling here.
 
aguero93:20 said:
I'm not getting pissed off at all. You're the one throwing around accusations.

Here's the way I see it.

There's plenty of peaceful, moderate Muslims in the world.

There's plenty of sick people in the world that aren't Muslim.

So maybe it's far too simplistic to lay all the blame at the door of Islam.

Now if you want to talk about religious and political extremism in general being a cancer in our world I'm all ears. If you want to talk about the need for more social freedom, women's rights and equality in the developing world the same. But I'm not buying into the bogeyman bullshit, sorry.
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They are Islamic extremists FFS!

Jesus Christ (Pardon the pun)

The blame is not only at the door of Islam..it's through the door with a fatwa and an AK47
 
aguero93:20 said:
I'd see their belief that what they were doing was inherently right as proof of their insanity. So would a court of law incidentally, you cannot be prosecuted for a crime if it's shown that you weren't capable of understanding that your actions were wrong.
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Where's that facepalm pic?

Lee Rigby's murderers are serving life sentences for their crime, they believed what they were doing was inherently right.

You're making literally no sense here, whatsoever.

Your rationale has completely unravelled.
 
RichardDunneOwnGoal said:
Where's that facepalm pic?

Lee Rigby's murderers are serving life sentences for their crime, they believed what they were doing was inherently right.

You're making literally no sense here, whatsoever.

Your rationale has completely unravelled.
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The court obviously decided they were sane. However I doubt the test they used to decide that was asking them if they thought they'd done the right thing.
 
aguero93:20 said:
I don't get you here, are you saying that if you have an ideology you're sane no matter what atrocities you commit?
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Of course not.

You can be wholly insane and hold an ideology which leads you to murder and genocide.

But you cannot be perfectly sane and murder/slaughter without ideology.

Something you're refusing to acknowledge.

You just dimiss these IS members as mentally ill, a cowardly response which allows your conscience to get away with not reflecting on ideological motives.

On the one hand you say the Nazi's were motivated by ideology for their crimes, but IS aren't - they're just mentally ill?

Cowardice. As I said, your rationale is non existent and has completely unravelled.
 
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