Attacks in Paris

RichardDunneOwnGoal said:
You I ust dimiss these IS members as mentally ill, a cowardly response which allows your conscience to get away with not reflecting on ideological motives.
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Why do you think their actions should affect my conscience?

RichardDunneOwnGoal said:
On the one hand the Nazi's were motivated by ideology for their crimes, but IS aren't - they're just mentally ill?
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In my opinion the driving forces behind the Nazi party were mentally ill as well, I'd thought I'd made that clear. I actually mentioned them as an example of how religion wasn't a necessary ingredient. I'm not arguing that ideologies aren't dangerous, I'm arguing that a happy and mentally stable person won't fall victim to them, a vulnerable and mentally unstable person will be far more open to them.
 
aguero93:20 said:
Why do you think their actions should affect my conscience?



In my opinion the driving forces behind the Nazi party were mentally ill as well, I'd thought I'd made that clear. I actually mentioned them as an example of how religion wasn't a necessary ingredient. I'm not arguing that ideologies aren't dangerous, I'm arguing that a happy and mentally stable person won't fall victim to them, a vulnerable and mentally unstable person will be far more open to them.
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Christ, do I have to explain every point?

You're coming from an inherently cowardly position. You recognise that ideological motives can be central to committing atrocities, you did so in respect of Nazism, but you can't do so in respect of IS.

Because their ideology is centred around Islam, and that makes you deeply uncomfortable. So you convince yourself it's different, to allow yourself not to go near that discussion. A bit of mental gymnastics and your conscience is clear.

But now a bit of light has peered through the crack, and the flaws in your rationale are showing, so apparently mental illness is now a fundamental part of the driving forces behind the crimes of the Nazi party as well?

Fucking hell mate.
 
RichardDunneOwnGoal said:
Christ, do I have to explain every point?

You're coming from an inherently cowardly position. You recognise that ideological motives can be central to committing atrocities, you did so in respect of Nazism, but you can't do so in respect of IS.

Because their ideology is centred around Islam, and that makes you deeply uncomfortable. So you convince yourself it's different, to allow yourself not to go near that discussion. A bit of mental gymnastics and your conscience is clear.

But now a bit of light has peered through the crack, and the flaws in your rationale are showing, so apparently mental illness is now a fundamental part of the driving forces behind the crimes of the Nazi party as well?

Fucking hell mate.
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When did I say I didn't believe they had an ideology? My point from the start has been that the ideology could have been centred on any political or religious doctrine. Islam isn't the defining factor.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
There are over 1.5bn Muslims in the world. Maybe 150,000 are actively involved in groups that commit atrocities. That's about 0.1% of Muslims. If the figure was 20% then you might have a point.
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Of course. These people are a minority.

When I was talking in respect of IS and their ideology I don't mean all Islam, as there are many interpretations of it as a faith, I'm talking of IS and their specific ideology. Which of course is both religious and political.

However, it is an ideology that is still founded in Islam.

Although many many Muslims regard it as a perversion of Islam, of course.

But it is IS's ideology. And it needs critiquing, and recognition that beliefs have real world consequences. Rather than an, IMO, cowardly dismissal as the group and their followers being the work of insanity alone.

Ideology is central to this discussion.
 
Is it just me but I find it completely tasteless that when you watch a video of the atrocities on the daily mirror site you get a 30sec advert for the new Disney film or something ?
 
mrtwiceaseason said:
Is it just me but I find it completely tasteless that when you watch a video of the atrocities on the daily mirror site you get a 30sec advert for the new Disney film or something ?
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Really? That's terrible, I thought having to put up with twenty seconds of that little Justin Bieber **** halfway through Definitely Maybe on YouTube was bad...
 
aguero93:20 said:
When did I say I didn't believe they had an ideology? My point from the start has been that the ideology could have been centred on any political or religious doctrine. Islam isn't the defining factor.
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I'd put a slightly different spin on all this. Puritan ideologies in nearly any culture have always been seductive to the disenfranchised, the downtrodden, the unhappy and (often) the less-than-educated. They offer a simple, prescriptive (though stringent) path to a better life (often in the after-life, where it's easy to paint a picture of a far better world than this one).

It's when puritan ideologies acquire a charismatic, psychopathic, Machiavellian leader who leverages the ideology and its followers for his own power and goals that the flock becomes what appears to all outsiders to be mentally ill.
 
aguero93:20 said:
When did I say I didn't believe they had an ideology? My point from the start has been that the ideology could have been centred on any political or religious doctrine. Islam isn't the defining factor.
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You dismissed their ideology as an irrelevance, an "excuse" for their actions, and pinned their actions down to insanity. While doing the exact opposite in respect of the Nazis.

We know you don't wish to discuss Islam and the role it plays in their ideology, and you don't need to because you've already dismissed their ideology as being culpable in their crimes so as such you don't have to go near the Islam discussion.

And therein lies your mental gymnastics.
 
mrtwiceaseason said:
Is it just me but I find it completely tasteless that when you watch a video of the atrocities on the daily mirror site you get a 30sec advert for the new Disney film or something ?
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I know - you do wonder sometimes don't you? is it random or is there some warped mind behind it? I have watched things on line about say a pollution spill then a car ad and you wonder do Peugeot want to be linked with pollution in a viewer's mind or does a firm selling life insurance mean it's ad to go out after a piece on 3rd World infant mortality?
 
RichardDunneOwnGoal said:
You dismissed their ideology as an irrelevance, an "excuse" for their actions, and pinned their actions down to insanity. While doing the exact opposite in respect of the Nazis.

We know you don't wish to discuss Islam and the role it plays in their ideology, and you don't need to because you've already dismissed their ideology as being culpable in their crimes so as such you don't have to go near the Islam discussion.

And therein lies your mental gymnastics.
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I give up. You're far too determined that Islam has to be the key factor here. It's nothing to do with leaving vulnerable youth open to being manipulated by sick people, nothing to do with feeling disconnected or disillusioned and definitely nothing to do with people's capacity to be power hungry and manipulative.

Make sure to check under your bed for the big nasty Islamic bogeyman every night for the next 10 years until they have a new one.
 
aguero93:20 said:
There we go. That's exactly what it is. So can we agree that rather than Islam being the problem, it's the cunts twisting it to achieve their own ends that are the problem?
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No we can't I'm afraid

You see as a moderate Muslim you are essentially a bad Muslim

As a Muslim you should live in an Islamic country

As a Muslim you should not fraternise with non Muslims

Now there's a vast swathe of moderates already going to hell

My only hope is this

That the moderate form of Islam eventually eradicates the fire and brimstone acolytes through the course of time

Wasn't that long ago that Christians were burning people at the stake

Now they are reduced to a handful of grannies and a collection plate of a Sunday

Maybe..just maybe..in 100 years we will look back at this time as we look back at the inquisition now..or the crusades

I hope so..but I'm not hopeful
 
aguero93:20 said:
There we go. That's exactly what it is. So can we agree that rather than Islam being the problem, it's the cunts twisting it to achieve their own ends that are the problem?
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No, we can't, because it's clearly not as straightforward as that.

Just because many Muslims regard IS's interpretation of Islam as a perversion of their faith, doesn't mean IS's interpretation of the faith can be dismissed and ignored. It doesn't change the fact that their interpretation of the faith is being used to legitimise their very existence and the atrocities they commit against other Muslims and non Muslims alike.

Most people aren't violent scum who want to inflict harm on one another, and thus, most Muslims will ignore the more violent passages of the Koran.

IS don't. Their specific ideology is centred around such passages.

The fact that Islam contains the contradictions it does, that it is open to interpretation, is both its weakness and its strength.

As I said previously, I don't have all the answers, I'm not a Muslim or an Islamic scholar. I just don't believe it's constructive to deliberately ignore or gloss over the role Islam has in this kind of violence. In respect of IS, and the wider Muslim world.
 
aguero93:20 said:
I give up. You're far too determined that Islam has to be the key factor here. It's nothing to do with leaving vulnerable youth open to being manipulated by sick people, nothing to do with feeling disconnected or disillusioned and definitely nothing to do with people's capacity to be power hungry and manipulative.

Make sure to check under your bed for the big nasty Islamic bogeyman every night for the next 10 years until they have a new one.
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Again, it's the vulnerable youth narrative.

It simply isn't true. It's a false narrative, which again, is an attempt to undermine the role of ideology alone.

People who identify with these extreme beliefs come from all walks of life. That terrorist plot that was foiled in London earlier this year/late last year to target Met police officers? One of the leading figures behind the plot was a UK born medical student. Those group of teenage girls from central London who flew off to join IS? All intelligent and academically gifted young people from stable homes.

The ideology is central to the problem. And it needs to be dissected.

It ties in with a persecution complex about 'Western imperialism', and other such things, it's multifaceted. And religion is of course inextricably a part of it.

It's something that needs deep reflection, and you're not helping. Not at all surprised you'd part with such a moronic jibe either, a total reflection of where you're at.
 
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