Bluemoon labour thread.

[Bill]

its pretty simple, we are skint, the whole country is on its arse, had this been a tory government people would be calling for a change, its their right to do so.

its a little like the mark hughes situation, he had to go, it did'nt look like it was going to get any better. have we put the right man in charge? nobody knows, do we know brown is a useless lying piece of scum? fucking right we do.

change required.

just a shame maggie is'nt waiting in the wings, she would sort browns shit out.


p.s. can we cut out the name calling please, no need.

 

[BTH]

ps - Thatcher was what the country needed as the cancer of unions was strangling us and hampering the renaissance of our great country (the 70's really were dour times) - surely you can agree with that (I am guessing you wont).

I don't agree that we needed Thatcher or that she initiated a renaissance. However, I do agree that the over-exuberant unions turned the British public against them which was a problem in several respects. It's gone way too far the other way now though. Now the unions are so weak that it's hard to serve the purpose they are supposed to; secure better working conditions and defend jobs.

Either you're anti-union or too tight to pay your subs or maybe even management? I'm a union rep so guess what? I don't agree with everything you say. I do, however, agree with you when you say that: "Now the unions are so weak that it's hard to serve the purpose they are supposed to; secure better working conditions and defend jobs." But still we try.

The Tories have always been anti-union; it's in their DNA, but whose raison d'être was it to bring the unions to their knees? Stand up Mrs Margaret Hilda Thatcher. She didn't care that communities, towns and even the country went down the tubes as a consequence so long as the unions (and the print and mining unions in particular) were decimated.

We are still suffering the aftermath of Thatcherism now and I don't just mean in terms of trade unions, but society as a whole. She destroyed it: lock, stock and barrel.

 

[bluemoon1078]

you would have to be a complete brain donor to vote this lot back in............ have you actually seen the state of the country? it's exactly the shambles it was always going to be with a Labour government!

 

[Bill]

you would have to be a complete brain donor to vote this lot back in............ have you actually seen the state of the country? it's exactly the shambles it was always going to be with a Labour government!

correct.

 

[Skashion]

I don't agree that we needed Thatcher or that she initiated a renaissance. However, I do agree that the over-exuberant unions turned the British public against them which was a problem in several respects. It's gone way too far the other way now though. Now the unions are so weak that it's hard to serve the purpose they are supposed to; secure better working conditions and defend jobs.

Either you're anti-union or too tight to pay your subs or maybe even management? I'm a union rep so guess what? I don't agree with everything you say. I do, however, agree with you when you say that: "Now the unions are so weak that it's hard to serve the purpose they are supposed to; secure better working conditions and defend jobs." But still we try.

The Tories have always been anti-union; it's in their DNA, but whose raison d'être was it to bring the unions to their knees? Stand up Mrs Margaret Hilda Thatcher. She didn't care that communities, towns and even the country went down the tubes as a consequence so long as the unions (and the print and mining unions in particular) were decimated.

We are still suffering the aftermath of Thatcherism now and I don't just mean in terms of trade unions, but society as a whole. She destroyed it: lock, stock and barrel.

I'm not anti-union at all. It's just that polls indicated at that point in time that the British public were not that supportive of the unions and the vast majority felt they had too much power. I think that if unions are going to strike they need public support. They didn't so they were defeated. The three-day week and the winter of discontent turned most people against the unions. Such was the discontent with the unions that they didn't even support the miners' strike. It's not a truth I like but it is a truth nonetheless.

I fully agree with you that we're still suffering from Thatcherism. I am northern for fuck sake.

 

[Evil Roy Slade]

i cant help thinking that the whole politics situation is a farce.

you have career politicians on both sides whose aim is to not lose and argument, to massage their ego's.

labour become tory and tory become labour - they change according to the mood of the situation.

whether we have a tory government or a labour government it will end in tears.

i can't help thinking we need a constitution, a bill of rights, a bottom line of what each individual is entitled to.

these knobs mess around with health care, education, pensions, - the old, the young and the ill - as if it is their right to treat us like commodities.

the day we have a bill of rights, a clear statement of what is open to change and what is not open to change then the country will be a great place to live.

As it stands at the moment we are lied to, cheated, sent to war in the name of what? Democracy? there is no such thing here. End this bollocks. End the political merry go round and let each individual have true human rights.


Edit: changed very basic rights to true human rights

 

[ello_jo]

Ive never voted before and I don't know which will be best for us. All I can see from where I am standing is the country is turning to shit and it seems its down to labour and after listening to cameron the torys seem very tempting! Whats so bad about the torys

 

[Skip Donoghue]

First time voters beware: If you vote tory you will burn in hell.

If you vote for any of them you will burn in hell


F***ing liars,thieves and cheats the lot of them[/quote]
this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

they all piss in the same pot

NON OF THE ABOVE! written right across the ballot form that's my advice

 

[salfordtrueblue]

Either you're anti-union or too tight to pay your subs or maybe even management? I'm a union rep so guess what? I don't agree with everything you say. I do, however, agree with you when you say that: "Now the unions are so weak that it's hard to serve the purpose they are supposed to; secure better working conditions and defend jobs." But still we try.

The Tories have always been anti-union; it's in their DNA, but whose raison d'être was it to bring the unions to their knees? Stand up Mrs Margaret Hilda Thatcher. She didn't care that communities, towns and even the country went down the tubes as a consequence so long as the unions (and the print and mining unions in particular) were decimated.

We are still suffering the aftermath of Thatcherism now and I don't just mean in terms of trade unions, but society as a whole. She destroyed it: lock, stock and barrel.

I'm not anti-union at all. It's just that polls indicated at that point in time that the British public were not that supportive of the unions and the vast majority felt they had too much power. I think that if unions are going to strike they need public support. They didn't so they were defeated. The three-day week and the winter of discontent turned most people against the unions. Such was the discontent with the unions that they didn't even support the miners' strike. It's not a truth I like but it is a truth nonetheless.

I fully agree with you that we're still suffering from Thatcherism. I am northern for fuck sake.

This debate is going along nicely,just spent the last 20 mins catching up....however i'd like to add here that althought thr TUC was to afraid to publically back the miners many places did... as a printworker i am proud to say my comrades at the sun took a stand and never let the Scargill hand waving picture(which the sun wanted to put out as a nazi salute) onto the front page. I was actually carryng the sogat union banner when we got battered by the police at bold colliery

 

[mackenzie]

This debate is going along nicely,just spent the last 20 mins catching up....however i'd like to add here that althought thr TUC was to afraid to publically back the miners many places did... as a printworker i am proud to say my comrades at the sun took a stand and never let the Scargill hand waving picture(which the sun wanted to put out as a nazi salute) onto the front page. I was actually carryng the sogat union banner when we got battered by the police at bold colliery

]

I used to work for ACAS in the mid eighties. Is SOGAT still going?

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not anti-union at all. It's just that polls indicated at that point in time that the British public were not that supportive of the unions and the vast majority felt they had too much power. I think that if unions are going to strike they need public support. They didn't so they were defeated. The three-day week and the winter of discontent turned most people against the unions. Such was the discontent with the unions that they didn't even support the miners' strike. It's not a truth I like but it is a truth nonetheless.

I fully agree with you that we're still suffering from Thatcherism. I am northern for fuck sake.

This debate is going along nicely,just spent the last 20 mins catching up....however i'd like to add here that althought thr TUC was to afraid to publically back the miners many places did... as a printworker i am proud to say my comrades at the sun took a stand and never let the Scargill hand waving picture(which the sun wanted to put out as a nazi salute) onto the front page. I was actually carryng the sogat union banner when we got battered by the police at bold colliery

Ah, Scargill :-) I watched a documentary recently about the miners strike. Is it true that Scargill refused to ever actually call a national ballot on strike action?

 

[SWP's back]

You'll be lucky to get a bus anywhere these days thanks to Thatcher's deregulation of the buses in 1986 (everywhere except London, naturally) whilst saying: "Anybody seen on a bus over the age of 30 has been a failure in life." Pretty much sums her and the Tories up for me.

P.S. If anyone really does think that farming out public services to the private sector and allowing them to continue paying dividends to their shareholders whilst taking subsidies from the public purse is a good idea, then do let me know.

Better than a wastful public sector (with far less efficiency and higher rates of absentee-ism) with gold rimmed pensions that the country cannot afford.

Apart from not answering the question, I see the old myth that the public sector is "wastful" {sic} has been dragged out again. I would like you to provide the source you used to demonstrate your assertion that the public sector is indeed "wastful": "with far less efficiency and higher rates of absentee-ism" if you don't mind...

I don't think the worldwide recession has got much to do with the public sector unless, of course, you know something that I don't know?

Perhaps you can tell me how (just off the top of my head) annually increased fares, filthy buses, a duopoly amongst operators and the fact that we are charged through the eyes and nose in North Manchester and Salford and forced to pay 35% more on fares than our counterparts in East and South Manchester when profits for First Bus were £130+ million although their drivers were offered a 0% pay rise somehow suggest a better model that placing public transport in the hands of local authorities.

While we are at it, name something that has been improved by moving from the public to the private sector. I can't think of anything. Private firms have to make a profit, meaning cuts in jobs or wages or cutting corners. But again, if you know different...

And as for 'gold-plated' pensions? Another Tory lie! At current figures the average is about£3,000 a year; hardly gold-plated. On top of that public employees (like myself) have to actually pay in (an oft-overlooked fact) and it is cheaper for the state in the long run that we do this via a well-run and high-performing pensions fund (Greater Manchester) rather than leaving the state to provide. You'll be interested to know that there are many pensions' schemes in the south that aren't so well managed in predominantly - would you believe it? - Tory-run councils.[/quote]


Mate - I am a financial advisor and know the public sector pensions very well (NHS - Council - Teachers etc) and I can assure you and anyone else reading this that you are talking out of your arse. And to compare defined benefit (paying in 3-6%) to "defined contribution" or "money purchase schemes" is absolute bollocks. There is no contest.

So I am no longer going to bother talking to you. Enjoy the last month of Labour rule and hope to cling on to your public sector job (I really hope the Tories don't cut your no doubt very useful beaurocratic job).

Enjoy kiddo.

 

[glen quagmire]

I normally don't vote, but this time i will. It will be conservative for me. I'm not unaware that they seem to piss in the same pot, but when john smith died, labour died too. Their values and policies, have become more and more diluted, so that is why, i want them out!

 

[SWP's back]

Ah I see - sarcasm is so easily lost on here.

Ah well, ermm good stuff.

ps - Thatcher was what the country needed as the cancer of unions was strangling us and hampering the renaissance of our great country (the 70's really were dour times) - surely you can agree with that (I am guessing you wont).

Thatcherism... wasn't it great?

Just what the country needed, apparently!

You are right. This was much better:

<br /><br />-- Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:09 pm --<br /><br />

Fair play to you then if you are not one of those (and glad you also recognise them yourself) but I fear we will never agree. I believe socialism stops a socirty evolving and a free market will always see a society striving for improvement. (though one always needs a welfare state to look after the less fortunate).


I always find it funny, neither of us will run the country, neither will have a party that matches our own ideals exactly, both of us will be let down by pricks in charge giving a bad name to what we believe in. Yet here we are, arguing the toss and knowing full well that we have no control whatsoever in what a government actually does once it is in power (be itthe party the support or hate). It is a bit like telling the scousers to fuck off and that City would never lose to them at home. Only for your team to then let you down (Brown).

You have only had a few years of Tory rule. You may like it now you are out of short shorts. ;)

And yes, I am younger than both Stalin and Marx. (and Thatcher)

As for the "Why so serious" bit - when nobs like the other poster keep calling people a dick. It makes me smile really knowing they would never do so to ones face. Atleast you have the conviction of your arguments rather than resorting to (solely) name calling (even if you did try pandering to the "crowd" with your stick man bit).

-- Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:30 pm --




Better than a wastful public sector (with far less efficiency and higher rates of absentee-ism) with gold rimmed pensions that the country cannot afford.

-- Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:34 pm --




Do you only use Enfield put downs or have you tried "pre sell out" Ben Elton ones?

Plus it should be "you're" not "your" but I guess you didn't go to a provate school so I shouldn't be blaming you, but the education system as a whole. Also, it is generally seen as bad grammar to start a sentence with "and".

If you're going to have a go at someone else's spelling, at least get your own house in order FFS!

And there is nothing wrong at all with starting a sentence with the word 'And'. Or finishing one!

So I see you are not aware of the difference between basic spelling and grammar, and a typo. You are wrong about starting a sentence with "and" though.

 

[salfordtrueblue]

This debate is going along nicely,just spent the last 20 mins catching up....however i'd like to add here that althought thr TUC was to afraid to publically back the miners many places did... as a printworker i am proud to say my comrades at the sun took a stand and never let the Scargill hand waving picture(which the sun wanted to put out as a nazi salute) onto the front page. I was actually carryng the sogat union banner when we got battered by the police at bold colliery

]

I used to work for ACAS in the mid eighties. Is SOGAT still going?

jumped into bed with the nga,,forming gpmu....now i think theyve been swallowed up by unite...(Happy days in sogat)

 

[mackenzie]

jumped into bed with the nga,,forming gpmu....now i think theyve been swallowed up by unite...(Happy days in sogat)

Really enjoyed my time at ACAS. Wish I had stayed.

Some of those Unions have now vanished, as you say they have been swallowed up by others.

 

[SWP's back]

Ah I see - sarcasm is so easily lost on here.

Ah well, ermm good stuff.

ps - Thatcher was what the country needed as the cancer of unions was strangling us and hampering the renaissance of our great country (the 70's really were dour times) - surely you can agree with that (I am guessing you wont).

So the country NEEDED the Police to be mobilised against the workers and for the manufacturing businesses in this country to be killed off?
Minaworkers, ship building, the textile industry.....all killed by the thatcher regime.
Then there was the sell off of the profitable aspects of the public sector, things like transport, utility companies, leading to ever increasing costs for gas, electric and even the most basic of human needs, water.
The biggest (of many) scandals that can be levied against Nu-labour is that rather than bringing these things back under public ownership, they continued with the greed is good economic policy , and with the de-regulation of the financial sector, and the ever more greedy capitalistic bankers, we have now found ourselves in a position where we are expecting Public Sector workers to stand idly by while their terms and conditions of employment are ripped to shreds while Mr broon says that the bankers (who are by now Public Sector workers in al but name, as if it hadnt been for OUR MONEY bailing them out they would be unemployed), must have their bonuses as it is in their contracts?????????
Bloody hypocrite.

Yes it did. Also, the manufacturing industries were as efficient as Stevenson's Rocket, refused to modernise without strikes and couldn't keep up with the changing world. So they died off (despite massive government subsidies) - a shame, but I certainly sleep at night.

As for public sector workers - they can go and work in the real world (private sector) anytime they want and see how competitive they are. It is like the wasteful BBC not being as efficient as as comercial stations.

As for bailing out the banks (that is a global thing - not a Tory thing) and they will more than repay that debt, many, many times over. They are already well on the way there (look at the current share prices of those banks that were helped).

Call me lots of things but hypocrite is not one of them.

 

[maineman]

As it happens, I'm probably what you'd call a 'market socialist'. I do not like command economy.

True, I have only experienced nine years of my earlier life of the tories but as someone with a degree in politics I have wrote essays on the unemployment, rising inequalities, fire sales of nationalised industries (on the cheap to foreign ownership) etc. of the Thatcher era.

I actually said 'what a dick' ironically. When I'm being sarcastic I use dots (...) to indicate that I am being. I was actually trying to lighten the mood, which failed.

Ah I see - sarcasm is so easily lost on here.

Ah well, ermm good stuff.

ps - Thatcher was what the country needed as the cancer of unions was strangling us and hampering the renaissance of our great country (the 70's really were dour times) - surely you can agree with that (I am guessing you wont).

you really are a sad excuse for a human being.
the country needed thatcher dont make me laff.
its people like you who have no idea how the majority of people in this country struggle more under a tory govt. you obviously think you are socially superior. but hey when the majority are educated to a level that thatcher and her ilk denied them, then the likes of you and other parasites will be dealt with properly.

 

[salfordtrueblue]

This debate is going along nicely,just spent the last 20 mins catching up....however i'd like to add here that althought thr TUC was to afraid to publically back the miners many places did... as a printworker i am proud to say my comrades at the sun took a stand and never let the Scargill hand waving picture(which the sun wanted to put out as a nazi salute) onto the front page. I was actually carryng the sogat union banner when we got battered by the police at bold colliery

Ah, Scargill :-) I watched a documentary recently about the miners strike. Is it true that Scargill refused to ever actually call a national ballot on strike action?

Cheesy, there wasnt a national ballot,it was back in the day when if your president called you out,you headed the call,the notts scabs used it as an excuse to scab...but scabs will find excuses. Plain and simple and this was theres.

 

[mackenzie]

Also, the manufacturing industries were as efficient as Stevenson's Rocket, refused to modernise without strikes and couldn't keep up with the changing world. So they died off (despite massive government subsidies) - a shame, but I certainly sleep at night.

/quote]


That is incorrect. There were many in my locality that were completely successful and were shafted by the cheap inferior goods that came from overseas. Marks and Spencers in particular were one that cancelled a contract with a thriving local company and the company went under with the loss of nearly 100 jobs. It wasn't done on the grounds of quality it was done for money.

And Marks have seen their standing as one of the most highly respected chains go downhill in recent years.