Bluemoon labour thread.

[1_barry_conlon]

After reading the 'socialist ideals' on here and how it is great for everybody, can somebody let me know where is the 'model' of this socialist utopia?

Which country does it work in?

 

[Skashion]

After reading the 'socialist ideals' on here and how it is great for everybody, can somebody let me know where is the 'model' of this socialist utopia?

Which country does it work in?

Depends because it means different things to different people. For me, I would say the Paris Commune and revolutionary Catalonia - as described by Orwell in Homage to Catalonia.

 

[1_barry_conlon]

After reading the 'socialist ideals' on here and how it is great for everybody, can somebody let me know where is the 'model' of this socialist utopia?

Which country does it work in?

Depends because it means different things to different people. For me, I would say the Paris Commune and revolutionary Catalonia - as described by Orwell in Homage to Catalonia.

Communes/regions i'm not arsed about. I want to know the country which is the current working model for all the socialist idealogy which is being spouted on here.

Surely if it's painted as rosy as people on here claim well there must be one?


P.s. The not arsed quote isn't being flippant as i know how some of the stuff on here gets lost in interpretation.

 

[Skashion]

Depends because it means different things to different people. For me, I would say the Paris Commune and revolutionary Catalonia - as described by Orwell in Homage to Catalonia.

Communes/regions i'm not arsed about. I want to know the country which is the current working model for all the socialist idealogy which is being spouted on here.

Surely if it's painted as rosy as people on here claim well there must be one?

That kind of goes against socialist theory. Just like how it's getting quite difficult to find feudal states nowadays.

 

[Nreddishblue]

Labour and Tories=Tweedledum and Tweedledee.

Democratic party politics is not working.

 

[Bill]

Because Labour promised a referendum on the Treaty, then didn't give us one.

Tories have been banging on about having one for years, but they can't legally have one now because the treaty has been ratified.

Trust me, with the exception of Ken Clarke, the Tories are more anti-Europe than Labour.

I like Europe, I just don't think it's sensible that our laws are made in Brussels.

Labour are the only party ever to give us a referendum on Europe and the tories took us in the first place. The tories also signed the Single European Act and then the Maastricht Treaty. Doesn't sound very anti-European to me. Just seems to be vote-grabbing rhetoric to be honest.

Labour should have kept their promise on Lisbon, absolutely they should have, but it still doesn't compare unfavourably to the tories' dismal record.

i think that referendum was run by fifa, bent as fuck, i voted no, as did everyone i know, it then returned a 2 to 1 majority to go in. i have to this day never met a soul that voted yes.
worse thing we ever did.

 

[foolsgold*]

Who you going to vote for apart from Labour? I wouldn't vote conservative even if I dies as a result. ew!

 

[ElanJo]

Depends because it means different things to different people. For me, I would say the Paris Commune and revolutionary Catalonia - as described by Orwell in Homage to Catalonia.

Communes/regions i'm not arsed about. I want to know the country which is the current working model for all the socialist idealogy which is being spouted on here.

Surely if it's painted as rosy as people on here claim well there must be one?


P.s. The not arsed quote isn't being flippant as i know how some of the stuff on here gets lost in interpretation.

What's it matter whether it's a commune, region or country? The only difference is perspective and (sometimes) size/population. Either way, you've been given working models of real socialist ideals (Anarcho-syndicalism)

 

[mackenzie]

/quote]


That is incorrect. There were many in my locality that were completely successful and were shafted by the cheap inferior goods that came from overseas. Marks and Spencers in particular were one that cancelled a contract with a thriving local company and the company went under with the loss of nearly 100 jobs. It wasn't done on the grounds of quality it was done for money.

And Marks have seen their standing as one of the most highly respected chains go downhill in recent years.

[/quote]


So you prefer paying more for itams from the supermarket then do you? Do you always buy British when you can - even if the price is dearer? Do you always go for quality above cost?

Also - M&S are on a massive rise over the past 10 years - just look at their shareprice now (also it is the largest UK clothing retailer in the UK and 43 rd biggest retailer in the world) - but don't let the truth get in the way of your anecodotal evidence.[/quote]


You made a generalisation about the manufacturing industry, and I cited a case that refuted that. And as for quality being available in the shops these days, don't make me laugh. It is built to fall apart as quickly as possible. Or to be replaced by another updated version that is the "must have" for those who find such things important.

This country manufactured some of the best products in the world. For centuries. Until the conseumerism bug bit.

 

[Ronnie the Rep]

What's it matter whether it's a commune, region or country? The only difference is perspective and (sometimes) size/population. Either way, you've been given working models of real socialist ideals (Anarcho-syndicalism)[/quote]


The problem with socialist ideals are that they are just that - ideals. In reality the general venality and selfishness of people gets in the way - so long live capitalism where the cream (and the shit) float to the top because people strive harder for themselves and their families than some obscure "commune"

 

[1_barry_conlon]

Communes/regions i'm not arsed about. I want to know the country which is the current working model for all the socialist idealogy which is being spouted on here.

Surely if it's painted as rosy as people on here claim well there must be one?


P.s. The not arsed quote isn't being flippant as i know how some of the stuff on here gets lost in interpretation.

What's it matter whether it's a commune, region or country? The only difference is perspective and (sometimes) size/population. Either way, you've been given working models of real socialist ideals (Anarcho-syndicalism)

Course it matters. None of you can give an example of where your utopia is a shining beacon to the rest of the world.

And to use a commune as an example is beyond belief quite frankly. Let's see it work for millions of people rather than a poxy commune in some suburb somewhere.

The majority of socialist 'ideals' are taken from the likes of Marx,Engels etc etc The people who used their idealogy i.e. Lenin/Mao/Castro/Stalin what condition are their countries in now? They bear no resemblance to what was set out. Though we do know if we want a complete working example we can look at Cuba can't we as the others are so far detached from the original ideals as we've seen by their excesses into capitalism after the break down of the former Soviet union and the way China works now.

Never has Animal Farm been more apt.

 

[mackenzie]

The problem with socialist ideals are that they are just that - ideals. In reality the general venality and selfishness of people gets in the way - so long live capitalism where the cream (and the shit) float to the top because people strive harder for themselves and their families than some obscure "commune"

And yet there is the grey area Ronnie. Those that founder through no fault of their own, who end up claiming benefits and losing their businesses through someone elses policies and ruthlessness, or on the other side of the coin, someone elses inadequacies and arrogance. And Labour and Tory seem to have an uncanny mix of the two, mainly because they came so blurred years ago.

I never gloat when others fall by the wayside. I just think "There for the grace of God go I." Society can turn very quickly into "I'm alright Jack." And that pisses me off.

I am from a background where the Father was a Union Shop Steward and the Mother a die hard Tory. They wanted the best for their kids (some of whom did very nicely), but in my heart I have always thought my Father's outlook on life the healthiest.

 

[Ronnie the Rep]

The problem with socialist ideals are that they are just that - ideals. In reality the general venality and selfishness of people gets in the way - so long live capitalism where the cream (and the shit) float to the top because people strive harder for themselves and their families than some obscure "commune"

And yet there is the grey area Ronnie. Those that founder through no fault of their own, who end up claiming benefits and losing their businesses through someone elses policies and ruthlessness, or on the other side of the coin, someone elses inadequacies and arrogance. And Labour and Tory seem to have an uncanny mix of the two, mainly because they came so blurred years ago.

I never gloat when others fall by the wayside. I just think "There for the grace of God go I." Society can turn very quickly into "I'm alright Jack." And that pisses me off.

I am from a background where the Father was a Union Shop Steward and the Mother a die hard Tory. They wanted the best for their kids (some of whom did very nicely), but in my heart I have always thought my Father's outlook on life the healthiest.

you are quite right, it is a grey area. the sad point I make is that those who can't be bothered to work are also those who would hide from work under a socialist system. I saw the worst excesses of what the unions became in the 70's and 80's so not for me

 

[mackenzie]

And yet there is the grey area Ronnie. Those that founder through no fault of their own, who end up claiming benefits and losing their businesses through someone elses policies and ruthlessness, or on the other side of the coin, someone elses inadequacies and arrogance. And Labour and Tory seem to have an uncanny mix of the two, mainly because they came so blurred years ago.

I never gloat when others fall by the wayside. I just think "There for the grace of God go I." Society can turn very quickly into "I'm alright Jack." And that pisses me off.

I am from a background where the Father was a Union Shop Steward and the Mother a die hard Tory. They wanted the best for their kids (some of whom did very nicely), but in my heart I have always thought my Father's outlook on life the healthiest.

you are quite right, it is a grey area. the sad point I make is that those who can't be bothered to work are also those who would hide from work under a socialist system. I saw the worst excesses of what the unions became in the 70's and 80's so not for me

They hide under any system Ronnie. I have seen it for decades.

 

[mat]

you are quite right, it is a grey area. the sad point I make is that those who can't be bothered to work are also those who would hide from work under a socialist system. I saw the worst excesses of what the unions became in the 70's and 80's so not for me

Nothing compared to the excesses from the greed of this capitalism system we have now. The balance has gone too far the other way.

 

[mackenzie]

For those who their minds are completely made up, can I ask a question?

WHY??

The two major parties are now the same (at least their central ethos appears to be. And their probable future shenanigans).

They exhaust me with their seemingly endless jibes at each other and fookwittery (kudos to GStar there).

They do not CARE what any of us vote for. They are in it for theirselves.

Why don't some understand that??

 

[KpxSte]

For those who their minds are completely made up, can I ask a question?

WHY??

The two major parties are now the same (at least their central ethos appears to be. And their probable future shenanigans).

They exhaust me with their seemingly endless jibes at each other and fookwittery (kudos to GStar there).

They do not CARE what any of us vote for. They are in it for theirselves.

Why don't some understand that??

Exactly right and for this reason alone, we should all vote against our current MP even if that means voting for a party that we dont like.
Our only power as citizens is to remove those who we deem not honourable.
Send them the message that we will not stand for their lies, incompetetance and corruption.
If you re-elect your MP you are giving you permission to carry on behaving the way they do.

 

[mackenzie]

For those who their minds are completely made up, can I ask a question?

WHY??

The two major parties are now the same (at least their central ethos appears to be. And their probable future shenanigans).

They exhaust me with their seemingly endless jibes at each other and fookwittery (kudos to GStar there).

They do not CARE what any of us vote for. They are in it for theirselves.

Why don't some understand that??

Exactly right and for this reason alone, we should all vote against our current MP even if that means voting for a party that we dont like.
Our only power as citizens is to remove those who we deem not honourable.
Send them the message that we will not stand for their lies, incompetetance and corruption.
If you re-elect your MP you are giving you permission to carry on behaving the way they do.

Thank you!! That last sentence in particular!

Power to the People!!

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wos-dDxpJlQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wos-dDxpJlQ</a>

 

[Dr.Faustus]

I think the worst thing Labour have done is to completely ruin any trust in governmental figures with their relentless manipulation of statistics; I know statistics since their invention have been used for this but Labour have gone as far as to outright lie. Three instances stand out to me; education figures (grades etc), the way almost nothing is counted as unemployed anymore (if we used the same system that was used in the late 80's I would harbour a guess that the figure now would easily exceed 3m) and those on crime; the problems of which are picked out in this relatively in depth blog- <a class="postlink" href="http://www.citizenerased.net/archives/45" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.citizenerased.net/archives/45</a>.
All of which Labour evidences its success over the last 10 years upon.

 

[mackenzie]

I think the worst thing Labour have done is to completely ruin any trust in governmental figures with their relentless manipulation of statistics; I know statistics since their invention have been used for this but Labour have gone as far as to outright lie. Three instances stand out to me; education figures (grades etc), the way almost nothing is counted as unemployed anymore (if we used the same system that was used in the late 80's I would harbour a guess that the figure now would easily exceed 3m) and those on crime; the problems of which are picked out in this relatively in depth blog- <a class="postlink" href="http://www.citizenerased.net/archives/45" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.citizenerased.net/archives/45</a>.
All of which Labour evidences its success over the last 10 years upon.

Of course they have lied. They are complete gits.

Tell me how the Tories will be different though.