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By kid, do you mean thick person?
Brief History of the Universe
- Thread starter Damocles
- Start date
Let me say up front that this isn't a fair question. The idea that we can accurately boil down the complexities of quantum mechanics and inflation theory to the level that a person with absolutely no scientific education or understanding could grasp all of it without study is frankly a bit ludicrous. Instead we have to use metaphors and analogies which then pose new problems because saying "something is a bit like this" is easily translated as "something is the same as this" later on down the line. You can't explain the job of a False 9 to a person who has never watched even heard of football because you have to explain the entire game to them first to truly understand the position, where it came from and how it works on the pitch. Saying a False 9 is like a player who "vertically orbits" the 18 yard line is a metaphor that may help understanding but for people who know football would see it as pretty inaccurate. This is always the issue in these conversations.
However, I can give it a bash with that warning understood. I'm going to take these in reverse order though as it's easier to explain.
--------------------------------------------------------
And what was there before this event?
Well there's this confusing thing called time. We seem to understand what time is here in our lives as we measure it all....well all of the time. There are 60 minutes in an hour, 24 hours in a day and 365 days in a year. Everybody knows this on Earth. But there's no real scientific reason why there's 24 hours in a day, it's just the number we decided to invent.
First thing you have to understand is that seconds and minutes are a measurement system invented by humanity because of the amount of fingers we have and how our numbering systems worked at the time. Just like for example a metre is a human invented measurement. We defined what a metre is, told everybody so that we all agree on it and then use it.
Now you need to understand that just because minutes and seconds are man made, it doesn't mean that the thing that they are measuring is man made. Just like metres might be man made but we're not all stood next to each other - distance does actually exist. In the same way that distance exists, time also exists as a real thing. In fact when you know a bit more you realise that distance and time are both actually part of the same "fabric" that we call spacetime.
Spacetime is a substance, a real physical object. We can't see it and it's very hard to visualise because we are sat in it and on it. This image might help you understand the idea of spacetime as a fabric
Now in reality those 'grid squares' are very, very, very small and there a hundreds of trillions of them around you that you twist and shape as you walk around the Universe. It's like how you can't see the billions of bacteria around you but if you eat a dodgy curry then Delphi Belly becomes an extremely real phenomenon!
Here's the hard bit so you might need to stop and read this bit a few times to properly grasp it all:
Just like you move from one grid square to the next you have moved as a distance, you have also moved through time because it's the same substance you're travelling through.
All of the stuff about "twin paradoxes" and "time dilation" and black holes and the rest fits perfectly into place if you can fully read and understand the sentence above and its implications. That one sentence probably could allow people to understand 90% of the crazy stuff in physics. We're so used to thinking of time as a ticking concept that we have trained ourselves to refuse to think of it as an actual substance like distance.
If you could theoretically be absolutely and perfectly still with no forces acting on you in any way then you would stop travelling through time. You'd also be dead as this would require you to sit at absolute zero out in space somewhere and would probably require you to alter the Universe but this is idea is correct. Time is a thing. It's an object that you travel through just as space is something that you travel through as you move around.
Now back to the original question - what was before the Big Bang event. There was nothing before the Big Bang event, the question doesn't make any sense.
This seems to be a bit that many skip over aswell so another re-reading might be needed:
"Before" is a word we use to describe an event in time in comparison to another event in time. Before is like "left and right". You need an object to compare it to for it to make sense. Asking what is 3 metres to the left is a nonsense question; 3 metres to the left of what?
Up, down, left and right when we speak to each other are understood. When you say "move that glass a bit to the left", my brain and language translates that instruction into "this person wants you to pick up the glass and move it a few centimetres to your right/his left". We fill in a lot of the blanks via speech.
Another example, if you are doing a handstand and tell me to "look up" you aren't asking me to look at the ground even though from your point of reference that is now "up". You're asking me to look up based on the Earth's reference of up and down.
Now take away the Earth, take away all stars and planets and the Sun, take even away your body and gravity which provides a natural point. Then tell me which way is "up". There is no "up". Up is a word that a point of reference is needed to describe what you mean.
This is perfectly understandable when we're talking about distance. Now let's talk about time.
If you say to someone, "Daniel got there before me" then you're allowing the listener to use their brain and language and fill in a bunch of gaps of information. You are saying that you got there at a certain time. You are saying Daniel got there at a certain time. You are saying that the time that Daniel got there is earlier than you as measured by the natural passage of the Earth based Greenwich Mean Time on a clock. And this is fine.
The Big Bang event is what started time ticking. "Before" makes no sense because there's no reference in which that is a possible question. You are asking what is before time. There is nothing before time because the word "before" needs time to even exist as an idea.
Zubrman
Well-Known Member
Let me say up front that this isn't a fair question. The idea that we can accurately boil down the complexities of quantum mechanics and inflation theory to the level that a person with absolutely no scientific education or understanding could grasp all of it without study is frankly a bit ludicrous. Instead we have to use metaphors and analogies which then pose new problems because saying "something is a bit like this" is easily translated as "something is the same as this" later on down the line. You can't explain the job of a False 9 to a person who has never watched even heard of football because you have to explain the entire game to them first to truly understand the position, where it came from and how it works on the pitch. Saying a False 9 is like a player who "vertically orbits" the 18 yard line is a metaphor that may help understanding but for people who know football would see it as pretty inaccurate. This is always the issue in these conversations.
However, I can give it a bash with that warning understood. I'm going to take these in reverse order though as it's easier to explain.
--------------------------------------------------------
And what was there before this event?
Well there's this confusing thing called time. We seem to understand what time is here in our lives as we measure it all....well all of the time. There are 60 minutes in an hour, 24 hours in a day and 365 days in a year. Everybody knows this on Earth. But there's no real scientific reason why there's 24 hours in a day, it's just the number we decided to invent.
First thing you have to understand is that seconds and minutes are a measurement system invented by humanity because of the amount of fingers we have and how our numbering systems worked at the time. Just like for example a metre is a human invented measurement. We defined what a metre is, told everybody so that we all agree on it and then use it.
Now you need to understand that just because minutes and seconds are man made, it doesn't mean that the thing that they are measuring is man made. Just like metres might be man made but we're not all stood next to each other - distance does actually exist. In the same way that distance exists, time also exists as a real thing. In fact when you know a bit more you realise that distance and time are both actually part of the same "fabric" that we call spacetime.
Spacetime is a substance, a real physical object. We can't see it and it's very hard to visualise because we are sat in it and on it. This image might help you understand the idea of spacetime as a fabric
Now in reality those 'grid squares' are very, very, very small and there a hundreds of trillions of them around you that you twist and shape as you walk around the Universe. It's like how you can't see the billions of bacteria around you but if you eat a dodgy curry then Delphi Belly becomes an extremely real phenomenon!
Here's the hard bit so you might need to stop and read this bit a few times to properly grasp it all:
Just like you move from one grid square to the next you have moved as a distance, you have also moved through time because it's the same substance you're travelling through.
All of the stuff about "twin paradoxes" and "time dilation" and black holes and the rest fits perfectly into place if you can fully read and understand the sentence above and its implications. That one sentence probably could allow people to understand 90% of the crazy stuff in physics. We're so used to thinking of time as a ticking concept that we have trained ourselves to refuse to think of it as an actual substance like distance.
If you could theoretically be absolutely and perfectly still with no forces acting on you in any way then you would stop travelling through time. You'd also be dead as this would require you to sit at absolute zero out in space somewhere and would probably require you to alter the Universe but this is idea is correct. Time is a thing. It's an object that you travel through just as space is something that you travel through as you move around.
Now back to the original question - what was before the Big Bang event. There was nothing before the Big Bang event, the question doesn't make any sense.
This seems to be a bit that many skip over aswell so another re-reading might be needed:
"Before" is a word we use to describe an event in time in comparison to another event in time. Before is like "left and right". You need an object to compare it to for it to make sense. Asking what is 3 metres to the left is a nonsense question; 3 metres to the left of what?
Up, down, left and right when we speak to each other are understood. When you say "move that glass a bit to the left", my brain and language translates that instruction into "this person wants you to pick up the glass and move it a few centimetres to your right/his left". We fill in a lot of the blanks via speech.
Another example, if you are doing a handstand and tell me to "look up" you aren't asking me to look at the ground even though from your point of reference that is now "up". You're asking me to look up based on the Earth's reference of up and down.
Now take away the Earth, take away all stars and planets and the Sun, take even away your body and gravity which provides a natural point. Then tell me which way is "up". There is no "up". Up is a word that a point of reference is needed to describe what you mean.
This is perfectly understandable when we're talking about distance. Now let's talk about time.
If you say to someone, "Daniel got there before me" then you're allowing the listener to use their brain and language and fill in a bunch of gaps of information. You are saying that you got there at a certain time. You are saying Daniel got there at a certain time. You are saying that the time that Daniel got there is earlier than you as measured by the natural passage of the Earth based Greenwich Mean Time on a clock. And this is fine.
The Big Bang event is what started time ticking. "Before" makes no sense because there's no reference in which that is a possible question. You are asking what is before time. There is nothing before time because the word "before" needs time to even exist as an idea.
Well that pissed all over everything else I've tried to understand. Thank you Damo.
BlueTangerine
Well-Known Member
I find the question of why is there life? quite silly in a way. Neil explains briefly, that if the earth was bit closer or a bit further away.. I tried reading "the 6 numbers" but it's too heavy. My point is though, we evolved in this mess (not for a hell of long time mind) - that is why you can ask the question! So why does it have to appear so finely tuned? If anything could live and evolve in these conditions then it would wouldn't it? Or am I being too stupid?
SWP's back
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No you nailed the anthropological argument pretty well.
yorknomore
Well-Known Member
Are we talking the "Goldilocks zone" here?
BlueTangerine
Well-Known Member
I suppose so. I mean, if it was with bubbles in a bubble bath, you'd expect 1 of the universes to have the set up for at least "life" - I don't know if there can be something more than alive.. but you know what I mean :) And if it was forever expanding and collapsing then obviously it was right for life this time because we are here to ask the question.
BlueHammer85
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 13 Oct 2010
- Messages
- 35,848
Let me say up front that this isn't a fair question. The idea that we can accurately boil down the complexities of quantum mechanics and inflation theory to the level that a person with absolutely no scientific education or understanding could grasp all of it without study is frankly a bit ludicrous. Instead we have to use metaphors and analogies which then pose new problems because saying "something is a bit like this" is easily translated as "something is the same as this" later on down the line. You can't explain the job of a False 9 to a person who has never watched even heard of football because you have to explain the entire game to them first to truly understand the position, where it came from and how it works on the pitch. Saying a False 9 is like a player who "vertically orbits" the 18 yard line is a metaphor that may help understanding but for people who know football would see it as pretty inaccurate. This is always the issue in these conversations.
However, I can give it a bash with that warning understood. I'm going to take these in reverse order though as it's easier to explain.
--------------------------------------------------------
And what was there before this event?
Well there's this confusing thing called time. We seem to understand what time is here in our lives as we measure it all....well all of the time. There are 60 minutes in an hour, 24 hours in a day and 365 days in a year. Everybody knows this on Earth. But there's no real scientific reason why there's 24 hours in a day, it's just the number we decided to invent.
First thing you have to understand is that seconds and minutes are a measurement system invented by humanity because of the amount of fingers we have and how our numbering systems worked at the time. Just like for example a metre is a human invented measurement. We defined what a metre is, told everybody so that we all agree on it and then use it.
Now you need to understand that just because minutes and seconds are man made, it doesn't mean that the thing that they are measuring is man made. Just like metres might be man made but we're not all stood next to each other - distance does actually exist. In the same way that distance exists, time also exists as a real thing. In fact when you know a bit more you realise that distance and time are both actually part of the same "fabric" that we call spacetime.
Spacetime is a substance, a real physical object. We can't see it and it's very hard to visualise because we are sat in it and on it. This image might help you understand the idea of spacetime as a fabric
Now in reality those 'grid squares' are very, very, very small and there a hundreds of trillions of them around you that you twist and shape as you walk around the Universe. It's like how you can't see the billions of bacteria around you but if you eat a dodgy curry then Delphi Belly becomes an extremely real phenomenon!
Here's the hard bit so you might need to stop and read this bit a few times to properly grasp it all:
Just like you move from one grid square to the next you have moved as a distance, you have also moved through time because it's the same substance you're travelling through.
All of the stuff about "twin paradoxes" and "time dilation" and black holes and the rest fits perfectly into place if you can fully read and understand the sentence above and its implications. That one sentence probably could allow people to understand 90% of the crazy stuff in physics. We're so used to thinking of time as a ticking concept that we have trained ourselves to refuse to think of it as an actual substance like distance.
If you could theoretically be absolutely and perfectly still with no forces acting on you in any way then you would stop travelling through time. You'd also be dead as this would require you to sit at absolute zero out in space somewhere and would probably require you to alter the Universe but this is idea is correct. Time is a thing. It's an object that you travel through just as space is something that you travel through as you move around.
Now back to the original question - what was before the Big Bang event. There was nothing before the Big Bang event, the question doesn't make any sense.
This seems to be a bit that many skip over aswell so another re-reading might be needed:
"Before" is a word we use to describe an event in time in comparison to another event in time. Before is like "left and right". You need an object to compare it to for it to make sense. Asking what is 3 metres to the left is a nonsense question; 3 metres to the left of what?
Up, down, left and right when we speak to each other are understood. When you say "move that glass a bit to the left", my brain and language translates that instruction into "this person wants you to pick up the glass and move it a few centimetres to your right/his left". We fill in a lot of the blanks via speech.
Another example, if you are doing a handstand and tell me to "look up" you aren't asking me to look at the ground even though from your point of reference that is now "up". You're asking me to look up based on the Earth's reference of up and down.
Now take away the Earth, take away all stars and planets and the Sun, take even away your body and gravity which provides a natural point. Then tell me which way is "up". There is no "up". Up is a word that a point of reference is needed to describe what you mean.
This is perfectly understandable when we're talking about distance. Now let's talk about time.
If you say to someone, "Daniel got there before me" then you're allowing the listener to use their brain and language and fill in a bunch of gaps of information. You are saying that you got there at a certain time. You are saying Daniel got there at a certain time. You are saying that the time that Daniel got there is earlier than you as measured by the natural passage of the Earth based Greenwich Mean Time on a clock. And this is fine.
The Big Bang event is what started time ticking. "Before" makes no sense because there's no reference in which that is a possible question. You are asking what is before time. There is nothing before time because the word "before" needs time to even exist as an idea.
For sake of debate. Let's get my Christian friends point of view.
'Before' is a question of time which obviously came into existence with the Big Bang, however athiest philosophy HAS to explain how matter came to be, the question still begs, something cannot come from nothing, Your point does address this question only the concept of time which we all agree started at one particular point, science accepts that SOMETHING CANNOT COME FROM NOTHING, while that stands then an explanation is needed for the beginning of matter
Something popping into existence out of nothing is science fiction it simply does not happen in physics
Anything that begins to exist has a cause, the universe began to exist therefore the universe has a cause, it cannot be matter itself it has to transcend time space and matter, that would point to a trancsendent being
All the your point is saying is that time did not exist before the Big Bang, I agree, God BROUGHT time into being, Christian philosophers totally adhere to that concept, theism says that God exists OUTSIDE of time