Britain's Ruling Elite

[Bill Walker]

Re: Britains Ruling Elite

I think some like to use the fact they were born into poor/disadvantaged families as an excuse for not amounting to much.

success shouldnt be measured in monetary or materialistic possessions wayne

to some people these are not important

is 'amounting to much' a well paid job/profession, big house, flash car or just being happy, in your book ?
in my book you can be happy in a little terraced house with a 15 year old Astra, were all different

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Re: Britains Ruling Elite

I think some like to use the fact they were born into poor/disadvantaged families as an excuse for not amounting to much.

success shouldnt be measured in monetary or materialistic possessions wayne

to some people these are not important

is 'amounting to much' a well paid job/profession, big house, flash car or just being happy, in your book ?
in my book you can be happy in a little terraced house with a 15 year old Astra, were all different

The bolded bit is the key here. People will have different yardsticks as to what constitutes success. Certainly for me, my greatest achievements aren't related to money and moreover the periods where I've been earning relatively well are not what I'd consider the greatest period of my life in terms of 'achievement', so to speak.

That doesn't mean I don't think material things can buy you happiness, because I believe they can. For me, having money again after being relatively skint for a few years feels fucking amazing. Money gives you opportunity, power and a greater degree of control over your destiny. All those things are important, for better or worse.

 

[wayne71]

Re: Britains Ruling Elite

I think some like to use the fact they were born into poor/disadvantaged families as an excuse for not amounting to much.

success shouldnt be measured in monetary or materialistic possessions wayne

to some people these are not important

is 'amounting to much' a well paid job/profession, big house, flash car or just being happy, in your book ?
in my book you can be happy in a little terraced house with a 15 year old Astra, were all different

I agree Nimrod, you've just described my dad (even the old astra!) but he doesn't sit around moaning about the 'ruling elite' or people that were lucky enough to be born in to privileged families. He's happy with his lot and I admire him for that.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Re: Britains Ruling Elite

It is difficult to be critical of someone who mildly resents others who have had more opportunity in life, or privilege. I speak as someone who has had more than most of both those things, although I'm a long, long way from being part of the ruling elite.

I do think, however, that some people have unrealistic expectations when it comes to these matters. The fact is that every human society operates in this way. Perhaps things are calcified a little more in British society than other European countries, for a whole host of historical reasons, but the notion that the ruling elite in this nation is comprised of the same families as was the case two decades ago, never mind two centuries ago, is wholly wrong and hopelessly simplistic.

Whilst families will do what comes naturally and try and preserve their own status as much as they are able, it is indisputably true that fortunes can and do rise and fall, as society, and what it values, fluctuates. It may take a couple of generations, but working class men can spawn a legacy which wields true power and influence in this land. I speak as someone whose father was brought up in a slum in Hulme, who has given me opportunities that he did not have. It is completely natural for us to want better things for our children.

I understand the quasi-Marxist notion of a ruling elite, with the rest of society acting as slaves to their ends, even the professional classes, but it is a concept that is anachronistic, rooted as it is, in 19th century society. Land, whilst still important, has less supremacy in this globalised, technical world, where capital can be moved across the globe in the blink of an eye. People can make great fortunes now, largely irrespective of their control of the means of production in the conventional sense. This state of affairs has led to the ruling elite, such as they are, changing guard. This is a process that will continue as humanity continues to change at bewildering speed.

My point, I guess, is that there will always be people at the top, a ruling elite, pulling the strings, protecting their interests and throwing enough scraps to the rest of society to prevent them rising up together and taking it away from them.

Anyone who thinks they can create a society that operates any differently doesn't understand human nature and the natural order of things imo.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Re: Britains Ruling Elite

It's like the old parable of the Father who gives each son an equal share of his wealth to do with as they please. The different outcomes are telling in their own way, but that doesn't mean we should have to "reset" the system every few years and go back to everyone having an equal share out of some nonsensical belief in "fairness."

We all have our own ideas of fairness and equality, and I think I believe in both things. However, I believe in the fairness and equality of OPPORTUNITY, NOT OUTCOME. That has to be EARNED. The question, though, remains.....can we EVER create fairness and equality of opportunity, and of so HOW, without also driving outcomes?

 

[I'm With Stupid]

Re: Britains Ruling Elite

We all have our own ideas of fairness and equality, and I think I believe in both things. However, I believe in the fairness and equality of OPPORTUNITY, NOT OUTCOME. That has to be EARNED. The question, though, remains.....can we EVER create fairness and equality of opportunity, and of so HOW, without also driving outcomes?

Isn't that the whole point though? Private schools, by definition, remove any equality of opportunity, unless the universities are willing to redress the balance later. Interestingly, in Finland, private schools are pretty much banned, other than international schools for foreigners, and they regularly come top of international education leagues. But then it's easier to ban private schools when everyone has faith that the state system is doing a good job. At the end of the day, you can't stop people spending their money on their kids. Even if you banned private schools, they could still hire private tutors, or any number of other aids. Although obviously the fact that we can never have 100% equality of opportunities doesn't mean it's not right to try. Take inheritance tax, for example. Always seen as the ultimate evil by the rich media who stand to benefit from it disappearing. Stealing from the dead while their corpse is still warm. And yet I'd argue that as taxes go, it's the least problematic of the lot. By definition, it's only ever a tax on income the beneficiary hasn't earned, and so I'd have no problem with it being much higher than the current 40% after £300k. Surely it's far worse for society to tax people's earned income than their unearned income? But of course pretty much all of the people running the country stand to benefit from a substantial inheritance, so any talk of raising it would be quashed pretty quickly. There's also little soundbites like "I want the best for my kids" which sound really nice and well-meaning, but are actually quite disturbing. Because what you're actually saying is that you want your kids to have better opportunities than everyone else. You're not satisfied with them having the same honest chance as everyone else and succeeding or failing on merit. You want them to start the 100m race 20m ahead of everyone else.

I don't really care too much about the super rich being super rich, and I don't think most people actually do. Good luck to them. And self-made billionaires like Bill Gates certainly get a lot of respect. The issue is when they start (or continue) controlling our political system for their own benefit. The politics in the UK is fucked. The system is completely dominated by two parties, and practically impossible for anyone else to get in (it's not surprising that countries like Sweden have more representative parliaments). And then all of the candidates are chosen by the party hierarchy, so we're not going to get anyone who doesn't toe the party line. And who decides the party line? Well, the donors, of course. The rich people who stand to benefit from favourable changes in the law. Rich people can be as rich as they want, but they should do so under a system that everyone decides on, not that they essentially make up themselves. That's the issue with the ruling elite, not the fact that some people are getting insanely wealthy.

 

[TGR]

Re: Britains Ruling Elite

In India they have a saying which parents drum into their kids. it's this;

'Life is a race - so start running!'

Here the parents say 'Don't worry about the race - the state will look after you'.

Well life is a fucking race and its a race from start to finish. The sooner the LWNJ's get used to that idea the better.
If you don't want to join the race then that's fine but stop spouting the politics of envy and resentment whilst other people
pay for you and pick up the tab.

 

[BWTAC]

Re: Britains Ruling Elite

In India they have a saying which parents drum into their kids. it's this;

'Life is a race - so start running!'

Here the parents say 'Don't worry about the race - the state will look after you'.

Well life is a fucking race and its a race from start to finish. The sooner the LWNJ's get used to that idea the better.
If you don't want to join the race then that's fine but stop spouting the politics of envy and resentment whilst other people
pay for you and pick up the tab.

I've never heard any parents say that, perhaps you made it up along with the rest of the shite you post.

 

[TGR]

Re: Britains Ruling Elite

In India they have a saying which parents drum into their kids. it's this;

'Life is a race - so start running!'

Here the parents say 'Don't worry about the race - the state will look after you'.

Well life is a fucking race and its a race from start to finish. The sooner the LWNJ's get used to that idea the better.
If you don't want to join the race then that's fine but stop spouting the politics of envy and resentment whilst other people
pay for you and pick up the tab.

I've never heard any parents say that, perhaps you made it up along with the rest of the shite you post.

I have good mate who is Indian. He told me about it.
Maybe you just didn't listen?

 

[BWTAC]

Re: Britains Ruling Elite

In India they have a saying which parents drum into their kids. it's this;

'Life is a race - so start running!'

Here the parents say 'Don't worry about the race - the state will look after you'.

Well life is a fucking race and its a race from start to finish. The sooner the LWNJ's get used to that idea the better.
If you don't want to join the race then that's fine but stop spouting the politics of envy and resentment whilst other people
pay for you and pick up the tab.

I've never heard any parents say that, perhaps you made it up along with the rest of the shite you post.

I have good mate who is Indian. He told me about it.
Maybe you just didn't listen?

I'm on about what what you said parents say here, I've never heard that expression by any parent.