Calling all Tories. Why do you Tory?

[Ancient Citizen]

Are you serious? I'd say it's 70/30 in favour of Labour/the "left wing".

So would I, in fact I think it's a higher percentage in favour, but I'm not bothered if everyone is, although it does make a politics forum a tad tedious.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

That is true, many of the people who are on BM never post in this section, it is just the over opinionated fuckers like myself and other assorted over opinionated fuckers. Hardly representative.

Fuck off you, I'm not quite as opinionated sometimes, and a bit more on others, but that's only because I'm always right;)

 

[Ban-jani]

Because they love the successes and savings brought on by Tory outsourcing?

Leaked Ministry of Defence report reveals the shocking state of army

A leaked report from the Ministry of Defence has laid bare the catastrophic state of the British Army, revealing all but one infantry battalions are dangerously short of battle-ready troops.

www.dailymail.co.uk

This is why the government recently announced a post Covid recruitment drive to drum up the numbers across the board, to ensure we have a very strong military.

I am not worried between now and then, nobody is going to invade us because their capital city would be a car park in about 30 minutes of doing so.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Some of us are descendants of the mill owners ;)

Well I most certainly hope you're not the distant offspring of those particular
plutocrats who bankrolled that shower of shite over at Old Rope back in the day.

 

[stonerblue]

Well you must have some unusual mates, there were plenty like me who
did fine. Well, I say did fine, a couple were proper tearaways, one left at 14,
you could then, another joined the Marines, but we weren't treated any different to anyone else. You got caned and cracked around the head if
you rich or poor then.

I have.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

I agree with this, and would propose the following test instead:

We have food banks in this country because: (choose one option)

(a) the government is a bunch of cunts

Or

(b) the fifth largest economy in the world genuinely can’t afford to feed its o wn people

That I think will set the question up nicely

It would be interesting seeing the responses, but as the first two largest economies on earth also, by this assumption, cannot feed their own people,
it's a bit pointless.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

I’d love to know how many nurses out there actually use food banks, as this seems to be the go to argument for many.

It is obviously a disgrace that food banks are required in this day and age, but I would love to know the details on the various people who use them (non pandemic reasons).
I assume most are scraping by and use it as a means to get fed, some probably taking advantage of them for selfish gain and others probably spend their money in the wrong areas (ie not feeding their kids).

I think it is a complex issue like the homeless and not just a Tory’s are scum one as often depicted.

You cant just ''use them for selfish gain'' .... this is one of the myths of the right wing. You can only get to use a food bank if you are referred usually by the DWP , Social Services or your doctor

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Well first of all, you don’t know which way Captain Tom voted in 1945, unless he’s said so? He might have gone Tory for all we know, he certainly appeared to support the Tories recently.

It also has everything to do with socialism and capitalism and poverty. The welfare state is a socialist policy and one in which I support.

But it’s incredibly naive to suggest that a change in policy would eradicate poverty, in any system or government, people tend to be left behind.

It seems to me you want to focus on food banks specifically, rather than general poverty so let’s try and be specific on them. I agree that their use went up during Cameron and Osbourne’s tenure, this was always going to inevitable with the government tightening the purse strings to reduce the deficit. You might say that sounds harsh but it’s true, austerity was voted in by the public and whilst I think they went too far, they gained a majority again in 2015.

Had Brexit not happened we’d have had another 5 years of Osbourne’s obsession with balancing the books.

Now how do we get rid of food banks or should we? Has part of their increase been because of their availability in all areas now and therefore people have great access to them or is it because people literally run out of money and would starve if they didn’t use them?

I don’t know in all cases, I have an extended family member who uses them, who’s on universal credit. She can afford to eat through the money she gets and to feed her kids and obviously the family also supports her but she uses the food bank as a top up, to make sure her household gets a balance of food. I must say she actually turns down work due to mental health reasons but I am not entirely buying it.

Now, I am definitely not saying everyone is like this, I am using her as an example of someone’s situation being incredibly complex and not just a straight forward question of “the government are failing her”. She’s had the opportunity to work and has turned it down in favour of universal credit and still, she doesn’t absolutely need to use the food bank, she could get away with not doing, which I am not suggesting its

I do agree with you on the need to assist the so called underclass that’s being left behind but it I am saying it isn’t as straight forward as the government not giving a shit. The underclass has always been around, even under Labour governments and whilst I agree the government should do more to make the system work for everyone, the use of food banks isn’t, in my opinion, the best source of data to gauge the “malaise” you speak of.

It must also be said, had we had no Covid pandemic, and this government had been able to actually implement its budget pre Covid, the situation now would look a whole lot different.

You missed '' flat screen tv'' and ''ciggies'' in your bingo card .

 

[Ban-jani]

You missed '' flat screen tv'' and ''ciggies'' in your bingo card .

Why’s it a bingo card?

I happen to think the moaning about “benefit scroungers” is massively over the top and they hardly make a dent into public expenditure.

I am purely saying food bank usage isn’t necessarily the best source of data to judge poverty in this country, as individuals’ circumstances are often complex and cannot just be easily fixed.

 

[Cheesy]

You missed '' flat screen tv'' and ''ciggies'' in your bingo card .

I won't.

My Niece uses a food bank.

She genuinely has a massive flat screen TV and smokes 20 ciggies a day. She's never work a day in her life.

There's not many like this, but they do exist. Why should we not be able to point out that they do?

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

This is why the government recently announced a post Covid recruitment drive to drum up the numbers across the board, to ensure we have a very strong military.

I am not worried between now and then, nobody is going to invade us because their capital city would be a car park in about 30 minutes of doing so.

The Tories want to ''drum up the numbers across the board'' after depleting the numbers over the last 10 years by forcing compulsory redundancies on the services.... driving people out of a job they loved doing and forcing many to sleep on the streets.

To ensure ''we have a very strong military'' ... when my nephew was posted to the middle east we had to buy him boots and night vision goggles.

You're on a different planet.

 

[Cheesy]

To ensure ''we have a very strong military'' ... when my nephew was posted to the middle east we had to buy him boots and night vision goggles.

Bullshit.

 

[Ban-jani]

The Tories want to ''drum up the numbers across the board'' after depleting the numbers over the last 10 years by forcing compulsory redundancies on the services.... driving people out of a job they loved doing and forcing many to sleep on the streets.

To ensure ''we have a very strong military'' ... when my nephew was posted to the middle east we had to buy him boots and night vision goggles.

You're on a different planet.

The previous governments, ie Osbourne and Cameron, made it their goal to reduce the huge (cannot be overstated enough how huge) deficit to healthy levels and they cut right across society, whilst ensuring they didn’t disrupt business. I happen to disagree with the speed in which they did it and think they should have done it more gradually, but the deficit did need to come down, they were right about that.

Whilst they missed their time targets, they at least did get the deficit levels, eventually, to where they needed them to be and pre Covid the view was we were in a position to reinvest in many areas across British infrastructure, such as police and the armed forces, as the levels allowed such spending.

What you should do is not look at everyone within the Tory Party as a robot, enacting the will of the party at all costs, they, like the Labour Party have people with differing ideas and ideologies.

You should also look at circumstance, and realise that January 2010 was totally different than January 2020 (using January as Covid obviously ruined the budget and an emergency one needed to be brought out).

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Not sure why it tickled me that much more with you selecting brioche as your food of choice................ :-)

‘Let them eat barm’ doesn’t have the same ring to it.

 

[Chris in London]

Why’s it a bingo card?

I happen to think the moaning about “benefit scroungers” is massively over the top and they hardly make a dent into public expenditure.

I am purely saying food bank usage isn’t necessarily the best source of data to judge poverty in this country, as individuals’ circumstances are often complex and cannot just be easily fixed.

I am not suggesting for one second that food bank usage is a measure of poverty.

I am suggesting that the existence and reliance on foodbanks is a national disgrace. What is disgraceful is not that we have people in need of help from the state, for that has always happened, whether through those people’s own fecklessness or otherwise. What is disgraceful is that, as a state, the government is turning its back on those people. They are turning their back on those who have no control on their circumstances just as they are turning their back on the people who have flatscreen TVs and smoke 20 a day or whatever other lazy stereotypes anybody wants to lob in to the discussion.

I’ll say it once again because while you seem to be getting it, others are not.

However lazy or useless they are, nobody in this country should have to resort to charity so they do not starve. Anyone who thinks otherwise is, in my own view, a monster.

Whatever their specific circumstances, the people who go to food banks are in need. Their arrival at a food bank proves that somebody somewhere in authority in a government or quasi-government role has already acknowledged that they are in need. They are sent to food banks because the current government, unlike every single government of every political persuasion between 1945 and 2010, refuses to meet that need. The effect of that political choice is that unless these people access charity, they will not eat.

Everyone is free to form their own opinion but I regard that as an absolutely scandalous state of affairs. This is a state that will not lift a finger to stop its own people from starving. And some people have a problem with the description “bunch of cunts”?

The point you make in your other post about Osbourne is at the heart of the matter. As a matter of political choice, Osbourne decided to withdraw funding services for people in need such as crisis loans and emergency payments. He put nothing in its place. So if you can’t feed your kids because your UC claim hasn’t been processed yet, these days they don’t give you emergency funding, they give you a certificate to show you are worthy of someone else’s charity. That is scandalous. I can scarcely believe that I’m having to spell this out.

We know from the response to the Covid crisis that similar financial steps could have been taken to ensure that the U.K. could feed its own people. It was a choice, in other words, not a necessity. You describe it as Osbourne’s desire to get rid of the deficit, but in this particular context it is just as accurate to describe it as Osbourne’s willingness to let people starve.

 

[Chris in London]

‘Let them eat barm’ doesn’t have the same ring to it.

I’m impressed that you got anyone to believe you would ever let a brioche go uneaten until it was out of date.

 

[Ban-jani]

I am not suggesting for one second that food bank usage is a measure of poverty.

I am suggesting that the existence and reliance on foodbanks is a national disgrace. What is disgraceful is not that we have people in need of help from the state, for that has always happened, whether through those people’s own fecklessness or otherwise. What is disgraceful is that, as a state, the government is turning its back on those people. They are turning their back on those who have no control on their circumstances just as they are turning their back on the people who have flatscreen TVs and smoke 20 a day or whatever other lazy stereotypes anybody wants to lob in to the discussion.

I’ll say it once again because while you seem to be getting it, others are not.

However lazy or useless they are, nobody in this country should have to resort to charity so they do not starve. Anyone who thinks otherwise is, in my own view, a monster.

Whatever their specific circumstances, the people who go to food banks are in need. Their arrival at a food bank proves that somebody somewhere in authority in a government or quasi-government role has already acknowledged that they are in need. They are sent to food banks because the current government, unlike every single government of every political persuasion between 1945 and 2010, refuses to meet that need. The effect of that political choice is that unless these people access charity, they will not eat.

Everyone is free to form their own opinion but I regard that as an absolutely scandalous state of affairs. This is a state that will not lift a finger to stop its own people from starving. And some people have a problem with the description “bunch of cunts”?

The point you make in your other post about Osbourne is at the heart of the matter. As a matter of political choice, Osbourne decided to withdraw funding services for people in need such as crisis loans and emergency payments. He put nothing in its place. So if you can’t feed your kids because your UC claim hasn’t been processed yet, these days they don’t give you emergency funding, they give you a certificate to show you are worthy of someone else’s charity. That is scandalous. I can scarcely believe that I’m having to spell this out.

We know from the response to the Covid crisis that similar financial steps could have been taken to ensure that the U.K. could feed its own people. It was a choice, in other words, not a necessity. You describe it as Osbourne’s desire to get rid of the deficit, but in this particular context it is just as accurate to describe it as Osbourne’s willingness to let people starve.

Well to be very specific and hone it in on two key points, my questions are:

A) is the government willing to let people starve to death and is food bank usage proof of that?

B) what percentage of people that use food banks would literally starve to death or have to beg or root through bins to eat if they didn’t exist?

I think the answer to A is a no, I think they’ve proven that with their 2020 budget and what they’ve done during Covid and the answer to B is I really do not know, I cannot say either way that food bank usage is down to a matter of life or death, nor can I say they’re used because they are there and if they weren’t then people would just budget more and would eat.

The answer is likely somewhere in between the latter two suggestions and is very complex.

It is why I disagreed with you originally, in terms of you thinking it’s a clear cut question on both A and B.

 

[Chris in London]

Well to be very specific and hone it in on two key points, my questions are:

A) is the government willing to let people starve to death and is food bank usage proof of that?

B) what percentage of people that use food banks would literally starve to death or have to beg or root through bins to eat if they didn’t exist?

I think the answer to A is a no, I think they’ve proven that with their 2020 budget and what they’ve done during Covid and the answer to B is I really do not know, I cannot say either way that food bank usage is down to a matter of life or death, nor can I say they’re used because they are there and if they weren’t then people would just budget more and would eat.

The answer is likely somewhere in between the latter two suggestions and is very complex.

It is why I disagreed with you originally, in terms of you thinking it’s a clear cut question on both A and B.

The essence of the matter is the government has abandoned people it acknowledges are in need.

It acknowledges that they are in need, but it does not help them. It sends them to the charitable sector instead.

Can we agree on that much?

 

[Ban-jani]

The essence of the matter is the government has abandoned people it acknowledges are in need.

It acknowledges that they are in need, but it does not help them. It sends them to the charitable sector instead.

Can we agree on that much?

Well, the government would probably argue it is doing enough and has created opportunities for these people to go into, Covid apart.

I think there is some truth in what you say, they will know they can do more, but the amount that go to food banks isn’t necessarily a downward trend of people entering poverty, I think it’s more complex.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Well, the government would probably argue it is doing enough and has created opportunities for these people to go into, Covid apart.

I think there is some truth in what you say, they will know they can do more, but the amount that go to food banks isn’t necessarily a downward trend of people entering poverty, I think it’s more complex.

No its not complex at all .... we have a system in place that keeps people in poverty no matter how well they do or how hard they work ...... its designed to do exactly that.