Calling all Tories. Why do you Tory?

The irony of the forum socialists calling the working classes traitors is the working classes can’t stand your politics.

You’re a middle class movement now.
 
Tiattos_Waterbottle said:
Will admit that I'm not the sharpest knife, but at the same time, I have a deep compassion for my fellow man, and truly believe we should all benefit from living in a country such as Britain.

I find working class Tories repugnant and to be somewhat harsh, class traitors. The Conservatives have bled the poorest dry whilst giving breaks to their mates. There's literally no justification. They treat the North with such disdain, it genuinely boggles the mind.

I assume most aren't going to like this next part but it's my lived experience, so, the only things that I can see that would attract working class Tories is picking on the types of people the Daily Mail under Dacre used to constantly harass, that being the poor, vulnerable, asylum seekers, immigrants, the EU, single mothers.

Doubt this'll be mega popular because a large section of this forum are clearly on the right, which I can excuse in terms of us supporting the best team in the land, but outside of it, I find such people toxic. I stopped posting a few years back, because of the right wing rhetoric in off topic, and it shocked me a bit, to be honest because the general attitude seems to be, I'm alright, fuck everyone else. And I just can't do that.
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urban genie said:
Interestingly Engels was called a class traitor in his time as was Kropotkin and Benn
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Traitors to their supposed class. The wealthy not understanding why other people of wealth want something different to them.

This country has been the victim of class warfare for generations, but its not from the working class, it is the capitalist class waging war on the interests of the working class.

Doff your cap, tug your fetlocks, you commoner and bow to your betters. Any threat to the capitalist class and their interests is quickly ridiculed by the puppets in the media as class warfare, it is not class warfare, it is the desire to be treated as an equal not as a unit for production for the capitalist classes desires.

There are plenty of useful idiots about who will back the capitalist class though and accuse the working class of class warfare, because they are fucking clueless clowns.
 
metalblue said:
A fine post. Passionate and I understand it but it is a caricature of the Tory voter (of which I am one).

All I would say is that I’m more centre than right, I have compassion for my fellow humans, nothing against immigration, or single mothers. I didn’t like the EU but brexit wasn’t a right wing thing - my vote was given to the leave side because of the threat carried by TTIPs to our NHS and the public sector (now some might correctly point out that the son of TTIPs is TPP and the son of TPP is CPTPP of which I am aware and will scrutinise with care).

There are huge and unresolved injustices in this country- I wish there wasn’t but there is. I guess it boils down to which system you believe will solve them better but - and for me this is really key - people have got to stop being wankers and manipulating the system. Pay what you should and claim what you are entitled for. It’s not rocket science and then those actually in need can be properly looked after (ie more money for them rather than it going to fraudsters). I’m not talking here about if someone has got a dodgy knee are they really disabled (I don’t care if they really are or aren’t, I hope they aren’t as pain is insufferable, but they are 100% not the problem) I’m taking about proper crooks - the sort that setup companies at the start of the pandemic to fleece £50k each out of the tax payers or are making 30 bogus claims. The organised criminals. Of course they won’t stop being criminals because of my post on BM but there you go still makes my piss boil and we grass them up when we see it.

I would not say off topic is right wing by any stretch of the imagination so don’t be a stranger. Although you’ve got to watch out for @Rascal he’s a proper right winger ... or is it right whinger I forget ;)
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I appreciate you answering in such a manner. I've suffered through austerity most of my adult life, whilst I'm in a stable job now, I look at shit like Universal Credit, and despair.

Ban-jani said:
He’s perfectly entitled to think that and post it and I am perfectly entitled to call it the crap post it is.

The fact he still thinks class warfare is relevant sums it up.

It’s 20th century socialism at its worst. The kind of idiot that would beat up his colleagues for not striking with him.
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And I am perfectly entitled to think you're a tory weasel. Class warfare is more relevant than ever, it's turned the working class on one another. Everything you've posted in reply to me has clearly wound you up, and it's simply holding up a mirror and you don't like the look of it. Call me an idiot, socialist, ignorant all you like,not gonna make any more assumptions of you, than you voted to make my life and the lives of my City and arguably, my part of the country, much worse.

Honestly, you just sound like the comments section of the Daily Mail, so it's hard to take you seriously.
 
Tiattos_Waterbottle said:
I appreciate you answering in such a manner. I've suffered through austerity most of my adult life, whilst I'm in a stable job now, I look at shit like Universal Credit, and despair.



And I am perfectly entitled to think you're a tory weasel. Class warfare is more relevant than ever, it's turned the working class on one another. Everything you've posted in reply to me has clearly wound you up, and it's simply holding up a mirror and you don't like the look of it. Call me an idiot, socialist, ignorant all you like,not gonna make any more assumptions of you, than you voted to make my life and the lives of my City and arguably, my part of the country, much worse.

Honestly, you just sound like the comments section of the Daily Mail, so it's hard to take you seriously
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You keep doing so Comrade. There are some lefties on here who know the score.

The use of Socialist as a pejorative is hilarious, it shows a distinct lack of intelligence on their behalf.
 
Tiattos_Waterbottle said:
I appreciate you answering in such a manner. I've suffered through austerity most of my adult life, whilst I'm in a stable job now, I look at shit like Universal Credit, and despair.



And I am perfectly entitled to think you're a tory weasel. Class warfare is more relevant than ever, it's turned the working class on one another. Everything you've posted in reply to me has clearly wound you up, and it's simply holding up a mirror and you don't like the look of it. Call me an idiot, socialist, ignorant all you like,not gonna make any more assumptions of you, than you voted to make my life and the lives of my City and arguably, my part of the country, much worse.

Honestly, you just sound like the comments section of the Daily Mail, so it's hard to take you seriously.
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You’re not going to make assumptions of me but I’ve not even voted Tory the last two times of asking and you sound like the comments section of the Morning Star.

I am sorry to hear you’ve suffered but you’re a minority of the working class, the majority, before Covid, including practically everyone I know, have done well out of the current system.

What people like you want, is for everyone else to suffer on the same level. I don’t, I want people in your situation to be an even smaller minority, to the point it’s barely happening, with opportunity to improve your situation.

The problem is, your politics won’t do that, the politics of Old Labour doesn’t lift people out of poverty, it very much keeps them in it and keeps more of the working class in it.

You’ve got two posters there who are both rank socialists of the 1970’s variety, who have liked your post. I could have guessed who would do. One wants a violent revolution and says it openly. He’d become violent against those with more money and he’s told me in person he’s a communist.

Brick layers, plasterers, electricians etc etc. have all started voting Tory because your politics are outdated and they can’t stand the condescending crap from the left towards them, when they’re actually doing pretty well for themselves. Blue collar workers are doing better than many white collar workers and that’s why your movement is now middle class and not working class. It’s consigned to a few envious old trots and students with barely any life experience.

Most others have moved on.

As I’ve said, I’m sorry you’ve had a miserable time but bringing up class warfare and calling people traitors is only going to get you a smack in the gob in the pub. You’ve got no right to tell people how to vote when you, Rascal, Fodeinthehole, voted for that anti Semitic, useless prick, last time.

It’s the height of being obnoxious, condescending and downright arrogant, to tell people what they should and shouldn’t vote for, it’s none of your fucking business.

When you talk about the lives your city, which I’m presuming is Manchester, you ignore the fact it’s economy is growing exponentially, well it was before Covid, opportunity was growing and many large businesses from London were opening new sites in the city, due to lower costs and untapped talent.

Anyway, carry on in your bitterness, I do hope you get rid of it and improve your situation.

I can sense the level of hatred steaming off this site, it’s a little sad.
 
Ban-jani said:
I see we’re still obsessing over the bogeyman Peterson PMSL
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Can I interest you in some lemon juice?

Your above post is full of mistruths, I'm not a 1970s style socialist. I find your politics and posting style deeply unpleasant. I'm not talking about conservatism, there was a good reply to TWB from another poster who posts in a far better and decent style. I'm talking about your personal hodge-podge politics.

You post on almost anything seemingly as if an expert but show yourself to have read a level comparable to the sum total of a biased collage of newspaper clippings.You also have this habit of reading a post to extract information that supports your own misconceptions and then debating in a style akin loudmouth at a sixth form debating contest.

It is my belief that there is something more sinister behind it "Trumpian" insecurity is my guess.
I'm now going to put you back on ignore.
 
Ban-jani said:
You’re not going to make assumptions of me but I’ve not even voted Tory the last two times of asking and you sound like the comments section of the Morning Star.

I am sorry to hear you’ve suffered but you’re a minority of the working class, the majority, before Covid, including practically everyone I know, have done well out of the current system.

What people like you want, is for everyone else to suffer on the same level. I don’t, I want people in your situation to be an even smaller minority, to the point it’s barely happening, with opportunity to improve your situation.

The problem is, your politics won’t do that, the politics of Old Labour doesn’t lift people out of poverty, it very much keeps them in it and keeps more of the working class in it.

You’ve got two posters there who are both rank socialists of the 1970’s variety, who have liked your post. I could have guessed who would do. One wants a violent revolution and says it openly. He’d become violent against those with more money and he’s told me in person he’s a communist.

Brick layers, plasterers, electricians etc etc. have all started voting Tory because your politics are outdated and they can’t stand the condescending crap from the left towards them, when they’re actually doing pretty well for themselves. Blue collar workers are doing better than many white collar workers and that’s why your movement is now middle class and not working class. It’s consigned to a few envious old trots and students with barely any life experience.

Most others have moved on.

As I’ve said, I’m sorry you’ve had a miserable time but bringing up class warfare and calling people traitors is only going to get you a smack in the gob in the pub. You’ve got no right to tell people how to vote when you, Rascal, Fodeinthehole, voted for that anti Semitic, useless prick, last time.

It’s the height of being obnoxious, condescending and downright arrogant, to tell people what they should and shouldn’t vote for, it’s none of your fucking business.

When you talk about the lives your city, which I’m presuming is Manchester, you ignore the fact it’s economy is growing exponentially, well it was before Covid, opportunity was growing and many large businesses from London were opening new sites in the city, due to lower costs and untapped talent.

Anyway, carry on in your bitterness, I do hope you get rid of it and improve your situation.

I can sense the level of hatred steaming off this site, it’s a little sad.
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Much of what you posted I am in complete agreement with. The left complain about the working class being indebted to the upper classes to promote their class war rhetoric and their solution is to make them indebted to the political class aka the government. It’s a nonsense but I suppose it does allow for the concept of an actual revolution as it focuses people to hate the politicians and we all know where to find them!

What struck me most from @Tiattos_Waterbottle follow up post was the reality of having to deal with our social support system. It just shouldn’t be so bloody hard for people; politicians of all hues and all around the globe make these well meaning changes and rules but with little regard for the reality. Legislation on our benefit system always seems to look to catch the few who are on the fiddle but at the determinant of everyone else, the “assessments” (if they still happen) are done on a “everyone is on the fiddle” premise - it’s a fucking nonsense is what it is. We need a mindset change.
 
Fode N The Hole said:
Can I interest you in some lemon juice?

Your above post is full of mistruths, I'm not a 1970s style socialist. I find your politics and posting style deeply unpleasant. I'm not talking about conservatism, there was a good reply to TWB from another poster who posts in a far better and decent style. I'm talking about your personal hodge-podge politics.

You post on almost anything seemingly as if an expert but show yourself to have read a level comparable to the sum total of a biased collage of newspaper clippings.You also have this habit of reading a post to extract information that supports your own misconceptions and then debating in a style akin loudmouth at a sixth form debating contest.

It is my belief that there is something more sinister behind it "Trumpian" insecurity is my guess.
I'm now going to put you back on ignore.
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Can I give you some feedback too?

I find it hilarious you’re now asking to give me some lemon juice, it’s all you’ve done for two weeks. You follow me around all the time on the forum trying to write a biography of me, it’s a very strange and deeply concerning obsession. I don’t think you’re going to put me on ignore, you’re too obsessed. Nevertheless you’re always wrong in your attempts to write Ban-Jani’s biography and then you have a paddy, like you’re doing now.

The two or three socialists on here really are stuck in the 70s, to still be talking about class traitors in 2021 is amateur beyond belief and then the automatic reference to Jordan Peterson, who seems to be scaring more on the left than Marx did on the right in his time (that’s a joke by the way).

I couldn’t care less for your opinion on my posting style, Metalblue doesn’t have to put up with the same shit from the forum trots that I do, and hasn’t experienced the coordinated attempts to rid all conservative views from the forum. He’ll get there too be fair and he’ll soon lose patience with the patronising from the left wing fringe posters, as you’ve just displayed there with the “you don’t understand blah blah blah”. What’s funny is you called me out for not understanding socialism last week and I gave you a perfect description I got no reply, funny eh?

Now off you go, crawl up Rascal’s arse where you belong.
 
metalblue said:
Much of what you posted I am in complete agreement with. The left complain about the working class being indebted to the upper classes to promote their class war rhetoric and their solution is to make them indebted to the political class aka the government. It’s a nonsense but I suppose it does allow for the concept of an actual revolution as it focuses people to hate the politicians and we all know where to find them!

What struck me most from @Tiattos_Waterbottle follow up post was the reality of having to deal with our social support system. It just shouldn’t be so bloody hard for people; politicians of all hues and all around the globe make these well meaning changes and rules but with little regard for the reality. Legislation on our benefit system always seems to look to catch the few who are on the fiddle but at the determinant of everyone else, the “assessments” (if they still happen) are done on a “everyone is on the fiddle” premise - it’s a fucking nonsense is what it is. We need a mindset change.
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As it stands I’m undecided on who to vote for on 2024 but the rhetoric of this lot on this forum makes me want to go out and vote Tory.

This is what they are like, they push people away from their movement and isolate themselves from potential allies.

The reality is, I do heavily sympathise with those on the bottom and do think we need to do more as a society, just not completely change the whole system to something that doesn’t work.

But when TW tells me who I should vote for and calls me a class traitor for doing so, there’s fat chance I’m going to do what he wants and I won’t then be voting Labour if that’s how they feel about my right to vote for who I wish in privacy.
 
Tiattos_Waterbottle said:
Will admit that I'm not the sharpest knife, but at the same time, I have a deep compassion for my fellow man, and truly believe we should all benefit from living in a country such as Britain.

I find working class Tories repugnant and to be somewhat harsh, class traitors. The Conservatives have bled the poorest dry whilst giving breaks to their mates. There's literally no justification. They treat the North with such disdain, it genuinely boggles the mind.

I assume most aren't going to like this next part but it's my lived experience, so, the only things that I can see that would attract working class Tories is picking on the types of people the Daily Mail under Dacre used to constantly harass, that being the poor, vulnerable, asylum seekers, immigrants, the EU, single mothers.

Doubt this'll be mega popular because a large section of this forum are clearly on the right, which I can excuse in terms of us supporting the best team in the land, but outside of it, I find such people toxic. I stopped posting a few years back, because of the right wing rhetoric in off topic, and it shocked me a bit, to be honest because the general attitude seems to be, I'm alright, fuck everyone else. And I just can't do that.
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Language like “I find working class Tories repugnant” and “a large section of this forum are clearly on the right...I find such people toxic”, is repugnant toxic language itself.

There’s nothing wrong with people being on the right. Whether they’re “working class” (that doesn’t mean now what it did in the previous two centuries anyway) or not, they aren’t traitors to anyone.

There’s far too much of this thought that being right wing is a bad thing. A lot of people who vote Conservative are centre-right, moderately right wing, onside with One Nationism and regulated capitalism, and are perfectly decent people with perfectly normal views. There’s absolutely nothing repugnant or toxic about them.

Many people who have voted or may vote Conservative at different times are floating voters who have very centrist views, or hold some left wing views, and will vote either way depending on their current personal/business situation and/or what’s going on and needed in the country at any particular time.

Look at the recent General Election. A Labour vote in that would had left a lot of the “working class” more out of pocket than the Tory vote.

There are different types of Conservatism as well. They aren’t all the same. One Nationsim (starting back with Disraeli) is a very different ideology to Thatcherism. And there are others.

The vast majority of this country have moderate views, and all of our major political parties in this country are moderate parties. That’s why they’re the major political parties. Tories calling Labour voters deluded utopian fantasists, and Labour voters calling Tories far right racists, are both wrong. Extreme and idiotic fringe views are held by a small minority of idiots on either end of the far right or left, and that’s why extremist political parties hardly ever win any seats, if ever. And they’re the toxic people, not working class Tories, or people on Bluemoon who might just happen to think something that opposes a left wing view on something.

I have floating views, I have some right wing and probably more left wing views. Although, I’m not a floating voter as I’ve never voted for the Conservatives. But I’d never rule it out. If a Conservative party ever got a grip on the laws on banking, big business, housing, and especially if an outgoing Labour govt who’d re-nationalised all of our public services and an incumbent Tory govt upheld them; I could well vote Tory.
(Not that any Tory party will do this, and not that I’ll ever vote for them... but you never know!).
 
Psychedelic Casual said:
Language like “I find working class Tories repugnant” and “a large section of this forum are clearly on the right...I find such people toxic”, is repugnant toxic language itself.

There’s nothing wrong with people being on the right. Whether they’re “working class” (that doesn’t mean now what it did in the previous two centuries anyway) or not, they aren’t traitors to anyone.

There’s far too much of this thought that being right wing is a bad thing. A lot of people who vote Conservative are centre-right, moderately right wing, onside with One Nationism and regulated capitalism, and are perfectly decent people with perfectly normal views. There’s absolutely nothing repugnant or toxic about them.

Many people who have voted or may vote Conservative at different times are floating voters who have very centrist views, or hold some left wing views, and will vote either way depending on their current personal/business situation and/or what’s going on and needed in the country at any particular time.

Look at the recent General Election. A Labour vote in that would had left a lot of the “working class” more out of pocket than the Tory vote.

There are different types of Conservatism as well. They aren’t all the same. One Nationsim (starting back with Disraeli) is a very different ideology to Thatcherism. And there are others.

The vast majority of this country have moderate views, and all of our major political parties in this country are moderate parties. That’s why they’re the major political parties. Tories calling Labour voters deluded utopian fantasists, and Labour voters calling Tories far right racists, are both wrong. Extreme and idiotic fringe views are held by a small minority of idiots on either end of the far right or left, and that’s why extremist political parties hardly ever win any seats, if ever. And they’re the toxic people, not working class Tories, or people on Bluemoon who might just happen to think something that opposes a left wing view on something.

I have floating views, I have some right wing and probably more left wing views. Although, I’m not a floating voter as I’ve never voted for the Conservatives. But I’d never rule it out. If a Conservative party ever got a grip on the laws on banking, big business, housing, and especially if an outgoing Labour govt who’d re-nationalised all of our public services and an incumbent Tory govt upheld them; I could well vote Tory.
(Not that any Tory party will do this, and not that I’ll ever vote for them... but you never know!).
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He is right though, there a few lefties on this forum, it is why i asked the question in the OP .

I also think working class tories lack vote against their own interests, I would argue that is because the Tories are immoral and will offer anything to the working class in order to hoodwink them into voting for them. The Tories one goal is to be in power, it is all they care about. Once they are in power the systematic rape and pillaging of the nations wealth can continue, the rampant cronyism can continue, the underhand donations will role in and it is a self perpetuating entity.

It is even more Immoral that they then also bribe the so called centrists into voting for them. Because they care as much about them as they do the working class. They don't give a fuck as long they hold the levers of power, the gravy train keeps on rolling and the bank balances keep on increasing.

How can a political party that pretends to care about the people be so callous as the Tories are, they do not see human beings, they see units of production that can earn them profit.

There is as you say nothing wrong with being on the right but by being on the right you justify these leeches wreaking havoc on our country, you justify there treatment of the disabled, you justify there dismissal of poverty and you justify there systematic rape and pillaging of the nations resources.

If you do not think that it is immoral what they do then I question your morality, because this Government is far removed from Disreali' one nationism, or even Major's one nationism for that matter. It is a government of extremes run by extremists, the holders of the great offices of state co-authored a book calling the British workers i.e the working class as the laziest on the planet. They are that in hoc with extreme neo-liberalism they are willing to sacrifice decent people for profit and they dont give two fucks, the immoral corrupt bunch of cunts.
 
Rascal said:
He is right though, there a few lefties on this forum, it is why i asked the question in the OP .

I also think working class tories lack vote against their own interests, I would argue that is because the Tories are immoral and will offer anything to the working class in order to hoodwink them into voting for them. The Tories one goal is to be in power, it is all they care about. Once they are in power the systematic rape and pillaging of the nations wealth can continue, the rampant cronyism can continue, the underhand donations will role in and it is a self perpetuating entity.

It is even more Immoral that they then also bribe the so called centrists into voting for them. Because they care as much about them as they do the working class. They don't give a fuck as long they hold the levers of power, the gravy train keeps on rolling and the bank balances keep on increasing.

How can a political party that pretends to care about the people be so callous as the Tories are, they do not see human beings, they see units of production that can earn them profit.

There is as you say nothing wrong with being on the right but by being on the right you justify these leeches wreaking havoc on our country, you justify there treatment of the disabled, you justify there dismissal of poverty and you justify there systematic rape and pillaging of the nations resources.

If you do not think that it is immoral what they do then I question your morality, because this Government is far removed from Disreali' one nationism, or even Major's one nationism for that matter. It is a government of extremes run by extremists, the holders of the great offices of state co-authored a book calling the British workers i.e the working class as the laziest on the planet. They are that in hoc with extreme neo-liberalism they are willing to sacrifice decent people for profit and they dont give two fucks, the immoral corrupt bunch of cunts.
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You question my morality, but would you support the public beheading of Johnson and the Queen if anarchy happened tomorrow for a communist revolution to ensue?
 
Fode N The Hole said:
Can I interest you in some lemon juice?

Your above post is full of mistruths, I'm not a 1970s style socialist. I find your politics and posting style deeply unpleasant. I'm not talking about conservatism, there was a good reply to TWB from another poster who posts in a far better and decent style. I'm talking about your personal hodge-podge politics.

You post on almost anything seemingly as if an expert but show yourself to have read a level comparable to the sum total of a biased collage of newspaper clippings.You also have this habit of reading a post to extract information that supports your own misconceptions and then debating in a style akin loudmouth at a sixth form debating contest.

It is my belief that there is something more sinister behind it "Trumpian" insecurity is my guess.
I'm now going to put you back on ignore.
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Isn't that the MO of people who just can't abide others having a different opinion to them?

Much rather an echo chamber where their views can't be challenged.
 
Cheesy said:
Isn't that the MO of people who just can't abide others having a different opinion to them?

Much rather an echo chamber where their views can't be challenged.
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Good idea, I'll put you on ignore too ;)

Joking.

Context is key. If I wanted an echo chamber I could avoid this subforum entirely and find a page of reddit or twitter etc. But I haven't done that. There is only so much time we have on this earth, so I am not going to waste it engaging with kindergarten style debate. We can all learn stuff from each other by reading and having our views challenged but the kind of glib debates that centres around overgeneralisations of "the left" or "the right" and misrepresentating people to construct some hollow victory on an internet forum are entirely pointless. It's easily descernible when people choose to run their mouth without any knowledge behind it.

He is the only person I have on ignore, and I intend that he should be the only one. But I'm not the only person who has taken that action. And I'd do the same if there was a prominent poster of same style and completely different set of politics.
 
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