Chelsea (a) post match thread

SilverFox2 said:
Unfortunately no matter how easy the killer pass will make it for another player our record says they will usually miss the target completely.
Perhaps Aguero knows this and thinks a shot from him is the better option.
The other point is that our opponents are less likely to defend in depth as much if our star striker is missing from a game so will be more confident of dealing with our attacks.
Perhaps we should use Aguero as a sub for when we are winning and the oppo is at least trying to attack more.
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I respectfully disagree. Let's say another player is in a better position to score and Aguero is in a near impossible position, is it right he tries the impossible himself or places a percentage trust in to fellow players?

If we have a higher win rate without Aguero, it suggests him being selfish in front of goal is more of a hindrance to us, than a help. My wish is that we retain Aguero and he changes his attitude toward wanting personal glory over the team winning, if he can't do so for the good of our team, I will accept his departure to pastures new with a heavy heart, but in the knowledge this will probably be for the best for Manchester City Football Club.
 
1961_vintage said:
I've lost count of the number of times I have seen Sergio have to try and beat the whole of the oppositions back 4 single-handedly rather than try a futile pass to the largely indolent, profligate bunch of twats around him.
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They're not twats mate, they're our players for better, for worse.

Ultimately, the surprising statistics show something different. Without Aguero, we share the goal scoring responsibility more evenly that's all. Another surprise in the stats was that we have more shots at goal with Aguero in the team, but a lower conversion rate. Most of that is down to Aguero missing chances that he's have been better off passing to a better placed player, whilst without him we're more likely to only take the shot if there is a clearer chance of scoring.

These surprising stats throw up a conundrum for us where Aguero is concerned I'm afraid.
 
Dribble said:
I respectfully disagree. Let's say another player is in a better position to score and Aguero is in a near impossible position, is it right he tries the impossible himself or places a percentage trust in to fellow players?

If we have a higher win rate without Aguero, it suggests him being selfish in front of goal is more of a hindrance to us, than a help. My wish is that we retain Aguero and he changes his attitude toward wanting personal glory over the team winning, if he can't do so for the good of our team, I will accept his departure to pastures new with a heavy heart, but in the knowledge this will probably be for the best for Manchester City Football Club.
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Of course you may very well be correct but we are not short of chances to shoot on goal and they do not all fall to Aguero.

Our record is abysmal when it comes to utilizing a shooting chance. We regularly miss the target and sometimes the ball completely yet when on target we get a respectable percentage of goals from those shots.
Compared to other teams we are collectively wasteful with our chances no matter who shoots.

Not saying Aguero has not been as guilty as others but increasing the number of passes to attempt supposedly easier chances may not be the answer to the problem and I suspect we may have criticised him for passing instead of shooting if that pass you suggest had been made and the receiver (no matter how better placed or who) fluffed it yet again.
 
Dribble said:
I think this is what will drive Pep on. He will forever be judged against the higher level of manager he's encountered in the PL and if he fails to impress here, I think it only fair that people reassess their judgements on where he stands as one of the world's best managers ever.....

Just imagine how it would have been if the original plan for him to follow Mancini had gone ahead? I feel strangely satisfied seeing the way his frustrated emotions also reflect that of most fans, at least he looks like he wants to be on the pitch with the players and not sat there with bloodshot eyes looking like he needs to sleep for a month. I honestly believe he feels our pain and wants this as much as we do, we can't ask for much more than that.
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All signs are there, he needs to get it right in the summer and I'm sure he will. Missing out on Laporte and Bonucci last summer has clearly messed up his plans. Hopefully Pep can get the main targets in early so they can transition easily. I've been waiting to see quality fullbacks in our line-up for years now. We will be a different team next season. Pep shares our pain and frustration. Looking at the managers in this league, he'll want to stay and prove himself. Thats why he has indicated he will probably stay longer than 3 years if everything goes well. I've made this point in one of my earlier posts, can't see him really changing leagues anytime soon. Winning the PL and CL with City will be amazing accomplishments and those are his targets, to get a double of treble of the top titles playing in the toughest, most competitive league in the world would probably make him the greatest manager of all time when accounting the titles he won in the past. Much harder to do it now than when the rags did it. We really have 6 teams competing for 4 positions and it will only get tougher.
 
Dribble said:
I love Aguero and his Aguerooooooo moment will live on in City folklore forever as a seminal turning point in our recent history, but you can't argue with a 49% win rare with Aguero and a 70%+ win rate without him.

It's obvious Pep has sussed this too. Alas unless Aguero adapts his game to suit us, I can see him going the same way as other big names who didn't suit Pep's master plan like Ibra and Ronaldinho.... Like I said, this summer promises to be an interesting one for sure.
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Kun has tried to adapt and is working hard but his passing and build up is just not good enough and never will be, that is why he will be sold. Just taking a look at his assists this season tells you a lot. No assists in the league and 3 for the season. Like you said he is not part of Pep's master plan and will be sold. Very tough, heart breaking decision but is the right one. The sooner many posters realize this on here the better.
 
SilverFox2 said:
Of course you may very well be correct but we are not short of chances to shoot on goal and they do not all fall to Aguero.

Our record is abysmal when it comes to utilizing a shooting chance. We regularly miss the target and sometimes the ball completely yet when on target we get a respectable percentage of goals from those shots.
Compared to other teams we are collectively wasteful with our chances no matter who shoots.

Not saying Aguero has not been as guilty as others but increasing the number of passes to attempt supposedly easier chances may not be the answer to the problem and I suspect we may have criticised him for passing instead of shooting if that pass you suggest had been made and the receiver (no matter how better placed or who) fluffed it yet again.
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But the stats suggest that if Aguero was less selfish, we'd score more. There's no doubt he's the deadliest finisher in our squad until Jesus arrived, but he needs to play more for the team and stop playing to enhance his personal goal tally above us winning. There are too many instances where sweeping moves have broken down because he's checked his run to try and take on a whole defence instead of keeping the sweeping move going and supplying the killer pass.

Look at this killer pass at 35 seconds... If that was Aguero he would have tried to take on the opposition from there and not thought of the pass. This is the issue with Aguero which Jesus coming to City is highlighting....

 
Easy said:
All signs are there, he needs to get it right in the summer and I'm sure he will. Missing out on Laporte and Bonucci last summer has clearly messed up his plans. Hopefully Pep can get the main targets in early so they can transition easily. I've been waiting to see quality fullbacks in our line-up for years now. We will be a different team next season. Pep shares our pain and frustration. Looking at the managers in this league, he'll want to stay and prove himself. Thats why he has indicated he will probably stay longer than 3 years if everything goes well. I've made this point in one of my earlier posts, can't see him really changing leagues anytime soon. Winning the PL and CL with City will be amazing accomplishments and those are his targets, to get a double of treble of the top titles playing in the toughest, most competitive league in the world would probably make him the greatest manager of all time when accounting the titles he won in the past. Much harder to do it now than when the rags did it. We really have 6 teams competing for 4 positions and it will only get tougher.
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Brilliant points mate and I fully agree.

There is no way Guardiola will want to walk away from the challenges presented by Conte, Wenger, Poccehetino, Klopp, Koeman and Maureen having not proved himself especially as he has the resources and infrastructure to do so. The only excuse he'll have is the amount of time he needs to achieve his goals after the debacle he inherited.
 
Easy said:
Kun has tried to adapt and is working hard but his passing and build up is just not good enough and never will be, that is why he will be sold. Just taking a look at his assists this season tells you a lot. No assists in the league and 3 for the season. Like you said he is not part of Pep's master plan and will be sold. Very tough, heart breaking decision but is the right one. The sooner many posters realize this on here the better.
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It really, really pains me to say so, but your points make utter sense and I'm forced to agree. Hopefully if Pep can make a a right back out of Navas, he can make a more complete player out of Aguero..... Here's hoping. :-)
 
Read the last few pages and there's valid arguments put across. Haven't convinced me that we're a better team without Aguero but people are entitled to disageee.
 
Pablo1 said:
Read the last few pages and there's valid arguments put across. Haven't convinced me that we're a better team without Aguero but people are entitled to disagree.
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We are entitled to disagree and to be honest I still feel guilty for facing up to the stark reality of the facts facing us..... I suppose we'll find out the answer conclusively come the summer mate...
 
Dribble said:
Brilliant points mate and I fully agree.

There is no way Guardiola will want to walk away from the challenges presented by Conte, Wenger, Poccehetino, Klopp, Koeman and Maureen having not proved himself especially as he has the resources and infrastructure to do so. The only excuse he'll have is the amount of time he needs to achieve his goals after the debacle he inherited.
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Dribble said:
It really, really pains me to say so, but your points make utter sense and I'm forced to agree. Hopefully if Pep can make a a right back out of Navas, he can make a more complete player out of Aguero..... Here's hoping. :-)
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The PL title is probably the absolute minimum on his mind for next season I can imagine. Think he really wants to change the club and have the same effect on City that Cruyff had on Barcelona.

Pep said its really depends on the players if they leave or not. He is saying prove that you can meet my demands or you're off. We'll see what happens. He is quite unpredictable. Who was expecting to see Bravo in today's line up!!
 
Dribble said:
But the stats suggest that if Aguero was less selfish, we'd score more. There's no doubt he's the deadliest finisher in our squad until Jesus arrived, but he needs to play more for the team and stop playing to enhance his personal goal tally above us winning. There are too many instances where sweeping moves have broken down because he's checked his run to try and take on a whole defence instead of keeping the sweeping move going and supplying the killer pass.

Look at this killer pass at 35 seconds... If that was Aguero he would have tried to take on the opposition from there and not thought of the pass. This is the issue with Aguero which Jesus coming to City is highlighting....

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Not disagreeing with you on that point I am simply saying that he is not the only one who shoots to score but often cannot even hit the target.
Our team either shoots when it is not realistic to expect a goal or is collectively unable to hit the target with their shots.

All our players are at fault and it is mystifying to me why getting chances by using excellent passing moves cannot continue by passing the ball into the net.
 
SilverFox2 said:
Not disagreeing with you on that point I am simply saying that he is not the only one who shoots to score but often cannot even hit the target.
Our team either shoots when it is not realistic to expect a goal or is collectively unable to hit the target with their shots.

All our players are at fault and it is mystifying to me why getting chances by using excellent passing moves cannot continue by passing the ball into the net.
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We've had three distinctly different approaches since 2009. What we need now is a period of sustained stability with one philosophy..... Obviously Guardiola was the man City had been chasing to achieve this.

A sustained approach to our game will allow us to practice what we need to do to a tee. When to shoot, when to pass and the players should be under no illusions of what they need to do.
 
Easy said:
The PL title is probably the absolute minimum on his mind for next season I can imagine. Think he really wants to change the club and have the same effect on City that Cruyff had on Barcelona.

Pep said its really depends on the players if they leave or not. He is saying prove that you can meet my demands or you're off. We'll see what happens. He is quite unpredictable. Who was expecting to see Bravo in today's line up!!
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Pep is very unpredictable. BUT I believe that once he has 3 seasons under his belt, we'll know exactly what he's about.

Credit has to be given to the situation Pep inherited though and that's why I've appeal for the jittery amongst us to hold their nerve and keep the faith. We have glaring weaknesses which need to be addressed. At the time of typing, Bravo has given away a soft goal and we seemed to switch off instead of managing the game, a skill we lost after the Mancini era. I honestly believe we'll be alright with Pep....
 
Easy said:
Sergio knows how to play but would rather keep the ball and try to dribble past two defenders than pass and run into space. Nobody is questioning his goal scoring record. Big nose, Kane would not get into the top teams in Europe, Lukaku possibly, but where? It looks like Chelsea are the only club willing to pay the fee required for him. Sergio is a legend but his time is up. I understand where you are coming from because I was shocked that Hart left on loan. Really wanted him to stay but after a few months, it was clear that was the right decision despite Bravo's struggles. Hart hasn't exactly been world class at Torino and I think he might even have the most errors leading to goals among keepers in the top leagues. Sergio leaving will be tough but our team will play better because of it. You can't blame Kun for not having the passing ability required. Through out his whole career he was the one getting PASSED to. Get a pass, create space, score a goal. That is Kun. He is not good enough in the build up play and Jesus offers much more in that respect which is why he played and Kun sat on the bench. The team is much more important than the individual and City will still be City without Kun. Its the harsh reality that the sooner you will accept the easier its going to be.
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He could end this season with his record goals tally. Not much wrong with his build up play. Remember, one of the main hallmarks of Pep is that he improves the performance of virtually every player he works with - no matter the age and Sergio is no exception. As for Joe, 4 Golden Gloves in 5 years (now a record) and 6 more clean sheets than Neuer in 6 fewer internationals behind a massively weaker defence over many years (albeit the England defence now looks promising). For a GK, the stats that matter are the clean sheets and he reigned supreme in the Prem on that front over a long period of time - De Gea, Lloris, Cech the lot. It's a fair comparison. All those guys are great GKs, but they all have weaknesses. Neuer makes serious mistakes every time I see him playing against a top team for Bayern. Every time, the commentator makes an excuse for him "rare mistake, shows he's human" etc. Buffon and Messi know far more about football than you and I. Messi isn't mates with Joe, but he rates him as 'phenomenal'. Buffon rates Joe amongst the best on the planet. We all have opinions, but the stats over many years do not lie. Some parts of the media just don't like Joe.
 
Dribble said:
The reason I uploaded this was there was a piece on the TV not so long ago that said Aguero's overall record at Manchester City was more like a 49% win rate with him and over 70% without him. The point many of us were making was that over many games whilst he's been at City, Aguero has gone for an impossible goal where a killer pass was available which has kept his incredible goal scoring record going, but damaged our win rate...... I think this explains why Pep dropped him in favour of Jesus which signalled a change in our fortunes. Jesus get injured, Aguero scores 8 in 9, we win 0, draw 4 and lose 1.

On Wednesday there were 3 occasions where the killer pass was on, but he ignored the team winning so he could score a wonder goal against Chelsea's 9 man defence. He didn't score, we lost, Chelsea 3 points, Manchester City 0 points and that's now 3 points out of a possible 12 whilst Aguero's continued his scoring hot streak. Great for Aguero personally, but not so great for us.
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The lack of wins isn't Sergio's fault - it's down to the ultra soft goals we concede - game after game after game after game - a goalkeeper who has an incredibly high goals conceded to shots ratio and too many unforced errors by others. He plays far more games than he misses, so to compare the two is like comparing apples and oranges. All the great strikers have a selfish streak. That's what I like about Sergio - we dreamed of a player like him for 40 years. His build up play is pretty good and improving. Best goals to games ratio in the history of the Prem hasn't he ?
 
Dribble said:
They're not twats mate, they're our players for better, for worse.

Ultimately, the surprising statistics show something different. Without Aguero, we share the goal scoring responsibility more evenly that's all. Another surprise in the stats was that we have more shots at goal with Aguero in the team, but a lower conversion rate. Most of that is down to Aguero missing chances that he's have been better off passing to a better placed player, whilst without him we're more likely to only take the shot if there is a clearer chance of scoring.

These surprising stats throw up a conundrum for us where Aguero is concerned I'm afraid.
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1961 vintage is right. Comparing Sergio's games played and not played is not a realistic comparison in terms of 1. the number of games played and not played is massively different, and 2. there are variables in terms of the opposition. He's not exactly blessed with too many other clinical finishers in the team to pass to. He's heading for 30 plus goals this season. What's clear to me is that we concede exceptionally soft goals game after game after game after game. I can handle losing if the opposition are too good for us and we make 'em work for wins. But in truth we've had too many teams gain draws and wins against us when they were not playing well. Every opposing team can smell a goal against us at 100 paces. Not Sergio's fault.
 
SilverFox2 said:
Not disagreeing with you on that point I am simply saying that he is not the only one who shoots to score but often cannot even hit the target.
Our team either shoots when it is not realistic to expect a goal or is collectively unable to hit the target with their shots.

All our players are at fault and it is mystifying to me why getting chances by using excellent passing moves cannot continue by passing the ball into the net.
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We've all played footy at some level. You score against your mates in the park, but step up for your school or Sunday team and scoring becomes a whole lot harder. - the pitch is bigger and the goal looks smaller. Scoring is the most difficult football skill. Sergio has scored a monumental number of goals for us and is heading for thirty-odd this season. He never hides. All the top strikers in Europe miss chances. Sergio happens to have the best goals to games ratio in Prem history hasn't he ?
 
HarrytheBlue said:
The lack of wins isn't Sergio's fault - it's down to the ultra soft goals we concede - game after game after game after game - a goalkeeper who has an incredibly high goals conceded to shots ratio and too many unforced errors by others. He plays far more games than he misses, so to compare the two is like comparing apples and oranges. All the great strikers have a selfish streak. That's what I like about Sergio - we dreamed of a player like him for 40 years. His build up play is pretty good and improving. Best goals to games ratio in the history of the Prem hasn't he ?
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Yes, but we win 49% of matches with him & over 70%+ without him. Ifound it very odd, but apparently it's very true....
 
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