Chelsea Thread - 2021/22

[Henri Regnault]

There are plenty of things to nail Abramovich on. He's clearly not a very good guy and it's right that he's forced to sell the club, but attributing the direct facilitation of the brutal mass murder of the Ukrainians to him isn't something we should be doing without the facts to prove it beyond doubt.

Sanctions shouldn't be viewed as strictly as, say, punitive criminal law.

Ultimately, sanctions are a way for Western countries to create leverage over Putin's regime. Seizing property of his and his acquaintances is important to create a stronger mediation position. In this case, the hook on RA is so strong that he's now touted as a potential mediator.

Whether or not the UK had a subjectively strong case to bring such "harsh" sanctions doesn't really enter into the equation when the goal is to bring Putin to the bargaining table as quickly and as weakly as possible.

 

[Bridgejunky]

There are plenty of things to nail Abramovich on.

Such as?

 

[Bridgejunky]

Sanctions shouldn't be viewed as strictly as, say, punitive criminal law.

Ultimately, sanctions are a way for Western countries to create leverage over Putin's regime. Seizing property of his and his acquaintances is important to create a stronger mediation position. In this case, the hook on RA is so strong that he's now touted as a potential mediator.

Whether or not the UK had a subjectively strong case to bring such "harsh" sanctions doesn't really enter into the equation when the goal is to bring Putin to the bargaining table as quickly and as weakly as possible.

Where is the evidence that sanctioning Roman Abramovich has had, or will have, any impact on Putin's actions? The wider economic sanctions perhaps, but this action against Abramovich?

 

[Bridgejunky]

Why ? Putin invaded Ukraine 8 years ago.
Abramovich made his money, whether legally or not years before that.
This purely a political move, if it was done 8 years ago, no problem, to do it now stinks.
We ignored Ukraine for 8 years.

Being done eight years ago might still have been problematic but I fully support the general point you are making.

 

[Blue Mist]

Chelsea fan so read bias into my comments if you feel that's what's going on.

Note I am not saying Roman is in the clear and should not be sanctioned. I can't say that because I do not know it to be true. My problem is that no evidence is being supplied to back up the claims made against him. The accusations against Roman are full of assertions but empty of evidence.

The Panorama program, which I saw being praised above, was a very poor piece of journalism. Examples: -

• Their evidence of links between Roman and Putin was that they were at a party together ten years ago! In any case that there are links doesn't matter. What matters is the nature of any links and whether they amount to Roman corruptly aiding Putin and supporting his war efforts.
• For legal protection the programme mentioned that Evraz denies suppling steel to the Russian armaments industry. They then continued making their point as if the denial is not true. That's fair enough. If they are confident of their information then they are justified in sticking to their guns but they have a responsibility to show how they know that the allegation is true. They didn't even hint at how they know however. It was typical tabloid tactics. Chuck the sensational headlines out there and rely on the fact that people will already have decided what they think before they notice the lack of evidence to backup the headline.
• The program asked us to accept that a 29 year old low level businessman of no repute was the architect of Boris Yeltsin's policy of rigged bidding processes for the sale of Russian state assets. This is obvious nonsense. It is no secret that Ronan paid bribes to acquire his Gazprom shares. This is not unusual, just look what is happening in our own country, but it is illegal. It can be grounds for barring Roman as a club owner but it is not a reason for sanctioning him.

If Roman is guilty of the things alleged then act against him but you have to show your evidence or at the very least explain why the evidence can't be revealed and and convince us that you are not lying. As it is, when MPs are only willing to state their assertions under Parliamentary privilege they surely have to understand why that weakens their position with anyone who is not prepared to simply lap up what they have to say.

I can't work out how he was a good guy until the Russians invaded. If he was a corrupt friend of Putin after the invasion surely he was before.
We have just paid Iran 400 mill after reneging on a contract. I wonder how much we will be paying your soon to be ex owner.

 

[Henri Regnault]

Where is the evidence that sanctioning Roman Abramovich has had, or will have, any impact on Putin's actions? The wider economic sanctions perhaps, but this action against Abramovich?

To my knowledge this kind of specific action against regime-associated individuals hasn't been attempted before. So there's no way of knowing how it will go. However, this is an attempt to isolate and sanction wealthier individuals in an effort to accelerate negotiations since the alternative, sanctioning all of Russia more harshly or for longer will lead to more pain to the average Russian, who has no real control over the military decisions. RA is a close associate of Putin's and was somewhat involved in the creation of the current Russian state.

It's new territory for the UN/Nato, as best as I can tell. I prefer this approach over, say, trying to isolate the entire Russian economy. That is going to have knock-on effects everywhere.

 

[Blue Mist]

To my knowledge this kind of specific action against regime-associated individuals hasn't been attempted before. So there's no way of knowing how it will go. However, this is an attempt to isolate and sanction wealthier individuals in an effort to accelerate negotiations since the alternative, sanctioning all of Russia more harshly or for longer will lead to more pain to the average Russian, who has no real control over the military decisions. RA is a close associate of Putin's and was somewhat involved in the creation of the current Russian state.

It's new territory for the UN/Nato, as best as I can tell. I prefer this approach over, say, trying to isolate the entire Russian economy. That is going to have knock-on effects everywhere.

But we were sanctioning individuals before the last months (continued) invasion. That is my point what gas Abramovic done in the last month that he first do in the last 8 years.
The UK and the west were happy to take Russian money even after they captured Crimea 8 years ago, so what us different now.

 

[Bridgejunky]

We have just paid Iran 400 mill after reneging on a contract. I wonder how much we will be paying your soon to be [ex] owner.

Interesting you should say that. I am fuming about the way the sanctions have been imposed on ticket sales despite the 'special licence' stating that it's measures were not aimed at harming the club or its fans. My issue is why are they doing it? The club's accounts are frozen and Roman has no access to them. Revenue from ticket sales goes into those accounts so where is the problem? My guess is that it does show what the government is really concerned about.

Even if Roman makes a successful challenge to the measures taken against him the net value derived from those ticket sales will amount to a trivial irrelevance in the context of the war in Ukraine or even just to Roman's wealth. It just does not matter either way. his being sanctioned is very news worthy however. The high levels of interest means this story is making oceans of good publicity, good distracting publicity, for the government. What is more the publicity is being generated at virtually no political cost. Chelsea are an unpopular club and outside of Chelsea circles Roman is unpopular too. By and large non-Chelsea people who have an opinion on the sanctions are in favour of them. It's a very easy win for the government.

 

[Bridgejunky]

To my knowledge this kind of specific action against regime-associated individuals hasn't been attempted before. So there's no way of knowing how it will go. However, this is an attempt to isolate and sanction wealthier individuals in an effort to accelerate negotiations since the alternative, sanctioning all of Russia more harshly or for longer will lead to more pain to the average Russian, who has no real control over the military decisions. RA is a close associate of Putin's and was somewhat involved in the creation of the current Russian state.

It's new territory for the UN/Nato, as best as I can tell. I prefer this approach over, say, trying to isolate the entire Russian economy. That is going to have knock-on effects everywhere.

The power dynamic between Roman and Putin is dramatically skewed in Putin's direction. I see no mechanism whatsoever for the sanctions on Roman to result in any pressure of any kind on Putin. The sanctions on the Russian economy certainly but this measure can't be anything less than a good laugh to Vlad.

If we focus just on his Chelsea asset, Roman has put £1.5bn into the club and never taken a penny out. Even that debt is, technically, not owed by Chelsea but by it's parent company Fordstam. There is no money which has ever gone through Chelsea and into Putin's coffers. There is no tap plumbed into Stamford Bridge which Putin could draw from. He's never drawn from it so why should he notice if it's turned off?

 

[Blue Mist]

Interesting you should say that. I am fuming about the way the sanctions have been imposed on ticket sales despite the 'special licence' stating that it's measures were not aimed at harming the club or its fans. My issue is why are they doing it? The club's accounts are frozen and Roman has no access to them. Revenue from ticket sales goes into those accounts so where is the problem? My guess is that it does show what the government is really concerned about.

Even if Roman makes a successful challenge to the measures taken against him the net value derived from those ticket sales will amount to a trivial irrelevance in the context of the war in Ukraine or even just to Roman's wealth. It just does not matter either way. his being sanctioned is very news worthy however. The high levels of interest means this story is making oceans of good publicity, good distracting publicity, for the government. What is more the publicity is being generated at virtually no political cost. Chelsea are an unpopular club and outside of Chelsea circles Roman is unpopular too. By and large non-Chelsea people who have an opinion on the sanctions are in favour of them. It's a very easy win for the government.

It may be an easy win now but is it legal. ? If you are just responding to things to be popular you shouldn't be in govt. The Sun demands Russians are sanctioned because they are in league with Putin, so Johnson does it.
As I say, if Abramovich is corrupt why did we not bother before, if he is supporting Putins war effort, why did we not act 8 years ago when Ukraine was first invaded. The answer may simply be Johnson and the tories were happy to take Russian money and only stopped when the media demanded it.