City & FFP | 2020/21 Accounts released | Revenues of £569.8m, £2.4m profit (p 2395)

Re: City & FFP (continued)

mad4city said:
fbloke said:
Its going to be really interesting to see how UEFA and their FFPR is viewed in a few years time.

I imagine that very few people consider the allowances made for the development of young players to be a bad thing but to be honest I do.

In order to invest in an academy a club has to have the money in the first place. The building of facilities such as City's CFA wont suddenly occur simply because it is deemed as good investment by UEFA.

The bigger clubs will not only have the best physical facilities with indoor pitches, 7,000 seater stadiums, live in accommodation and hydrotherapy pools etc but they will also have nutritionists, coaches, physio's etc far above what any smaller club can afford. Let's ignore the contracts that they can afford to pay players as well!

FFP will take less than a decade to not only kill the dreams of success but also strangle clubs like Southampton's alternative way of competing.

You're dead right. I mentioned this in thhe B Team thread. FFP (like the introduction of B teams into the league) will only serve to endorse and enshrine the sort of 'puppy farming' that the bigger clubs are already currently engaged in. For example, I believe Chelsea had over twenty players out on loan, last season. In effect, that's almost 50 first team-ready players at one club. Will they all get a run in the Chelsea first team? Will they heck as like! The majority will be sold to clubs further down the food chain because that's their level of ability.
So middling clubs - who've proved perfectly capable of producing players to that standard and beyond, for decades - will be forced to pay through the nose for what they used to be able to provide for themselves for free and indeed, even make a profit on. Furthermore, the rare gems - your Keegan at Scunthorpe or say, Rush at Chester will become even scarcer to find because the big puppy farm clubs won't just be cherry picking any longer, they will be hoovering up anybody with a glimmer of promise with promises that the ordinary - non Champion's League - clubs cannot hope to match.
What hope, for example have a club like Bury of producing and profiting from another Colin Bell, with City, United and probably Liverpool too, dangling all sorts before kid's eyes? It's easy to argue that it was always so but that ignores the new urgency that FFP puts on those three clubs to produce and profit from - young players. And given the new financial imperatives, get this, there will be less kids coming through from the ranks into City, United and Liverpool. They won't be able to afford to take the chance on missing out on CL football because they were blooding a new goalie/ centre half.
It all points to a carve up by the business men at the expense of the betterment of the game.

Bang on.

It's like buying up all the raw materials in a supply chain. If you've got all the wheels, nobody can make cars. You snap up all the wheels (the young players) and then flog them on at a premium, even having the cheek to market them as 'better wheels because they've been 'run in and tested' by Big Club Ltd'.
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

Was just thinking that if ffp got challenged in the future and was found to be illegal by the courts, wouldn't uefa have to pay back all the fines, just like the banks with the charges, ppi etc , would imagine that there would be a good few claims that the rules have not only taken money from clubs in fines but have restricted growth also..
This could be a costly business for uefa in the long run and could bring down the organisation in the future..
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

FanchesterCity said:
BluessinceHydeRoad said:
FanchesterCity said:
There are two sides the FFP and legality coin.

On the one side, there's fairly prima facie that it restricts business by placing limits on investment and 'policing' partnerships and sponsorship deals that are entirely legal.

On the other hand, there's the argument that clubs opt to be part of Premier League, and in this case, CL too. There are competition rules set out by UEFA and clubs are at liberty to withdraw from their competition.

A parallel that you COULD draw, is this:

The Olympics sets out the rules for it's 100m sprint competition, and a disabled or highly scientific competitor wishes to take part. The disabled competitor is aided by the use of a high speed wheelchair (or set of super fast artificial limbs) and the scientific competitor has developed a pair of trainers that allow him to run faster than any other competitor.
The Olympic Games committee opt to ban both competitors. The two competitors claim cases of disability discrimination and general discrimination respectively. Both competitors are paid sportsmen and failure to participate affects their earnings. In fact, the Olympics are THE number one competition for athletes - there is no viable alternative competition that could generate the same earnings.

This is the crux of the problem. Football clubs are businesses (yes) but they enter into a private competition (CL).
A similar situation occurs when we hear of golf clubs prohibiting women, and managing to circumvent sexual discrimination laws.

So, the issue will be two-fold.

1) Is Champions League (run by UEFA) simply a competition that sets out a set of rules that must be adhered to in order to partake (including fines)?
2) If it's MORE than a competition, then could those rules be anti-competitive, or restrictive?

Even if it's considered just a competition, that doesn't necessarily mean it can invent any rules it likes, but it does make like more awkward for anybody wishing to oppose those rules. i.e. you can have a competition that excludes women (or men) but you can't have one that excludes black or gay people etc.

It could also be argued that collusion between clubs (regardless of UEFA's involvement) is a form of price fixing, but it's tenuous. Agreeing to limit expenditure, or set investment caps could be seen as creating a barrier to entry, knowing full well it will secure the positions of the 'cartel' and restrict opportunity for others. But I repeat, it's quite tenuous at best.

Needless to say, in summary, it's not quite as clear cut as many think, which in part, is probably why UEFA and clubs are reluctant to get into a protracted legal wrangle that could take years to resolve and create a great deal of negative press for both sides. It's likely City have chosen to be pragmatic and play along with UEFA. The compromise reached allows both parties to save face.

DuPont isn't faced with sponsors and brand value.... he has little to lose and a lot to gain from a test case.

Your post misses several points, Fanchester. In the case of the Olympic sprinters those taking part in the olympic sprints have to meet certain stringent sporting standards, in the form of qualifying times, before they get anywhere near the Olympics proper. I believe Pistorius met the standard for some meetings and competed, so there's no question of discrimination. UEFA lays down purely sporting criteria for qualification for its CL and those meeting them can compete. They may not lay down conditions which are not in accordance with European laws. As Petit pointed out:

More fundamentally, the requirement to break even challenges the way the EU should function as laid down in Article 101 of the European Treaty. From the very start, in the eyes of the law, there is no real question that UEFA is an association of “associations (national associations) of companies (the clubs)” and that, if need be, its regulations are “decisions” must be in accordance with what is laid down in Article 101 (1) of the Treaty.

Those taking part in CL almost need to qualify, so there's little difference, other than UEFA also impose additional criteria (financial).
The point being made though is that the criteria set can be perceived as discriminatory, but holds firm still. Hence men can't enter the women's race... even though they meet all criteria bar one (gender). It's not considered sexual discrimination though.


Code:
article 101:
1. The following shall be prohibited as incompatible with the internal market: all agreements between undertakings, decisions by associations of undertakings and concerted practices which may affect trade between Member States and which have as their object or effect the prevention, restriction or distortion of competition within the internal market, and in particular those which:

(a) directly or indirectly fix purchase or selling prices or any other trading conditions;

(b) limit or control production, markets, technical development, or investment;

(c) share markets or sources of supply;

(d) apply dissimilar conditions to equivalent transactions with other trading parties, thereby placing them at a competitive disadvantage;

(e) make the conclusion of contracts subject to acceptance by the other parties of supplementary obligations which, by their nature or according to commercial usage, have no connection with the subject of such contracts.

2. Any agreements or decisions prohibited pursuant to this Article shall be automatically void.

3. The provisions of paragraph 1 may, however, be declared inapplicable in the case of:

- any agreement or category of agreements between undertakings,

- any decision or category of decisions by associations of undertakings,

- any concerted practice or category of concerted practices,

which contributes to improving the production or distribution of goods or to promoting technical or economic progress, while allowing consumers a fair share of the resulting benefit, and which does not:

(a) impose on the undertakings concerned restrictions which are not indispensable to the attainment of these objectives;

(b) afford such undertakings the possibility of eliminating competition in respect of a substantial part of the products in question.

It's nowhere near as clear cut as you suggest and sport DOES clearly impose restrictions on competitive events that would contravene EU law were it not a sporting competition (e.g. gender based competition).

The counter argument to the anti-competitive angle is that clubs are free to form their own league if they wish, and they are not prohibited from spending as much as they like... they are only prohibited from doing so IF they wish to partake in CL.
A club is free to resign from the PL if it wishes too, and apply to join the FL if it wished to do so). Of course, that's very unlikely given it would be bad for business, but it's an option available.

It's simply far too simplistic to claim 'it's a no brainer and in City's favour'. It's not. We don't know which way any ruling would go. If either side knew for certain, they'd have made the call already.
I 'think' a great deal of UEFA's criteria would fail, but again, you never can tell, and there can be some strange rulings from time to time - which is probably why City opted to take the safer route... since the restrictions imposed don't outweigh the gamble through the courts.

Fanchester, UEFA is not acting as a governing body when organising the CL: it is acting as a competing party. It is actually competing with the clubs which are members of UEFA. It lays down sporting criteria t be met by clubs before they can take part, but then it distributes prize money, it sells TV rights and benefits from the revenue, it seeks sponsorship from companies and prevents companies who do not sponsor the CL from being mentioned as sponsors of grounds etc during CL matches etc. I

Study article 101, and ask yourself whether UEFA is fulfilling any of the conditions laid down in (a), (b), (c) or (d) and you'll find that it's indulging in exactly those practices which the law seeks to prohibit. It is, if it applies FFP, discriminating commercially against companies which are members of UEFA and it is not entitled to demand of any company that it has to give up rights guaranteed by law to participate in the CL. UEFA is not above the law any more than City, United or any other club. Nor is it possible to claim that FFPR fulfills any of the conditions outlined in article 101 (3) which would render 101 (1) inapplicable.

Now, the claim that UEFA can lay down any conditions it likes for entry to the CK is spurious, but the document I quoted earlier is actually a translation of an analysis by Prof Petit of Liege university, so they aren't really my arguments. My view is that City made clear on the OS that their instinct was to drag UEFA before evry court they could, but that they didn't because of the time factor - if UEFA tried to impose a ban on our participation in the CL it would have harmed our activities in the transfer window before it could have been sorted out.
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

gordondaviesmoustache said:
Nightmare Walking said:
corky1970 said:
Welcome to the forum.

Long time lurker ?

Or have you been reincarnated ?

Hi pal and thank you.

More of a reincarnation although I only had a few posts. The majority of them were in the old skool dance music thread in the cellar.

Did not have access to the email account I used and could not remember the log in details, so started again.
Are you named after the Kid Unknown track? if so it was a fucking brilliant tune. Breakbeat house iirc.



Yes, I took it from the Kid Unknown (Dj Nipper) tune. It is a quality record :-)
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

But for all of City's threat to take it to court, the fact remains - they didn't.

We'll not know how winnable the case is until it's heard, and therefore, as things stand it's still a gamble.

Absolutely people can make a very strong case to say UEFA are restricting business. But it's not all one way traffic. There's a defence at play too.

Platini has stated himself that there's a fundamental difference in philosophy between UEFA and many of the clubs (but the net result is the same).
In the clubs' eyes, UEFA facilitates the competition... it's little more than the administrator of their competition (i.e. the clubs' competition). In UEFA's eyes, it's their (UEFA's competition, and the clubs simply take part)... but that's a philosophical difference, In practice, the competition is run by UEFA with a fairly strict set of rules for qualification via sporting achievement. Those sporting achievement rules still affect the business of a club, and it COULD be argued that UEFA's arbitrary allocation of places in the CL (i.e. 'top nations' = more places), and their seeding system are every bit as much barrier to a sustained CL presence as their new FFP regulations.

If their FFP part of their criteria is really so blatantly at odds with European Law, then it begs the question how it's come this far without challenge, and why both City and PSG (let alone many other parties) haven't initiated legal action.

The complexities of this are myriad, and I don't believe anybody is so certain of victory (including UEFA themselves). Not only that, but as others have pointed out, 'restricting' clubs is not necessarily illegal. Providing UEFA can put forward a defence that shows it's beneficial for the entire industry and not only an elite cartel, then their FFP regs can be interpreted as necessary.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending UEFA here, I think the whole thing is a very poorly thought through, but they do have 'their side of the story' and it's not entirely without merit.

I can't even begin to imagine the level of politics involved in some of this. The last thing City want to do is take on the establishment when in reality we want to become part of that establishment and become of the G14 (for want of a better term). I think City realised they aren't a million miles off complying, so it's far easier to take a small hit, then comply, and let someone else fight the battle later (if ever). IF City's claim that they want to genuinely create a sustainable business, then all in all, FFP suits them - it's only the timing of it that's troublesome.
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

FanchesterCity said:
But for all of City's threat to take it to court, the fact remains - they didn't.
You're getting two things mixed up here. City felt they had a good case to take the decision to CAS on the grounds that there had been an abuse of process over the way UEFA changed their rules after the event, which meant we failed one of the key tests needed to be able to use the pre-2010 player wage exemption. That wouldn't be a challenge to FFP but to the way the assessment was applied. A full challenge to FFP could take years to go through the European justice system so would have had no impact in the short term.

But they had to balance a number of considerations in thinking about that, including how it would affect our image and brand among other things and what the consequences of challenging UEFA would have meant in other ways. I have it on very good authority that this was carefully thought through and the threat of action may have been used to our advantage in agreeing a settlement. I can also assure you that Sheikh Mansour and Khaldoon al-Mubarak are not people you double-cross with impunity and currently they feel they have been betrayed. That will not pass without a reaction and there will be consequences collectively and individually. Watch this space.
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

Fanchester, UEFA is not acting as a governing body when organising the CL: it is acting as a competing party. It is actually competing with the clubs which are members of UEFA. It lays down sporting criteria t be met by clubs before they can take part, but then it distributes prize money, it sells TV rights and benefits from the revenue, it seeks sponsorship from companies and prevents companies who do not sponsor the CL from being mentioned as sponsors of grounds etc during CL matches etc. I

Study article 101, and ask yourself whether UEFA is fulfilling any of the conditions laid down in (a), (b), (c) or (d) and you'll find that it's indulging in exactly those practices which the law seeks to prohibit. It is, if it applies FFP, discriminating commercially against companies which are members of UEFA and it is not entitled to demand of any company that it has to give up rights guaranteed by law to participate in the CL. UEFA is not above the law any more than City, United or any other club. Nor is it possible to claim that FFPR fulfills any of the conditions outlined in article 101 (3) which would render 101 (1) inapplicable.

Now, the claim that UEFA can lay down any conditions it likes for entry to the CK is spurious, but the document I quoted earlier is actually a translation of an analysis by Prof Petit of Liege university, so they aren't really my arguments. My view is that City made clear on the OS that their instinct was to drag UEFA before evry court they could, but that they didn't because of the time factor - if UEFA tried to impose a ban on our participation in the CL it would have harmed our activities in the transfer window before it could have been sorted out.

It IS acting as a governing body. The clubs are members of UEFA and UEFA organises a competition for its members, with specific rules.
Sport imposes many additional restrictions that the law normally grants. For instance, it is perfectly legal to take many forms of drug as an individual member of the EU, but in sport, you may not do so. The human right to use (some) drugs is superseded by sporting rules. This is not deemed to be a breach of the law, it's considered a fair and justified rule.

In the same respect, financial restrictions places upon competitors MAY also be deemed a valid and justified / necessary restriction.

Of course no club or sporting body is greater than the law, but the debate isn't about that per se, it's about IF UEFA is contravening any laws or not, and as of yet, we're left speculating.

In your eyes, you say they are in breach of article 101 (1) and don't fulfil any of 101 (3). To you it's as clear as day.
I say, it's not that clear, and they can make a case for not breaching (1) and fulfilling (3) anyway. I don't necessarily agree with them, but there absolutely is an argument on their side to defend themselves. They are claiming that they are helping to keep the integrity of the sport, and that is of benefit to the entire sport. It maximises revenues for the clubs, and seeks to secure the financial futures of it's members by preventing them getting into financial difficulties.

Of course, their actual implementation of the rules to achieve this 'greater benefit to the game' leaves a lot to be desired (certainly in my eyes), but that's where I believe any legal battle wouldn't end up killing FFP, it would just change a few of the rules to fall in line with whatever judgment was made. The only clubs really bothered about it right now are those that are in transition from poor to wealthy, The super earning clubs are more than happy to back UEFA as it cements their position. Do City really want to piss off UEFA AND every club it's going to want to do business with in the coming years? I doubt it. I think they want to get in bed with them!
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

Prestwich_Blue said:
FanchesterCity said:
But for all of City's threat to take it to court, the fact remains - they didn't.
You're getting two things mixed up here. City felt they had a good case to take the decision to CAS on the grounds that there had been an abuse of process over the way UEFA changed their rules after the event, which meant we failed one of the key tests needed to be able to use the pre-2010 player wage exemption. That wouldn't be a challenge to FFP but to the way the assessment was applied. A full challenge to FFP could take years to go through the European justice system so would have had no impact in the short term.

But they had to balance a number of considerations in thinking about that, including how it would affect our image and brand among other things and what the consequences of challenging UEFA would have meant in other ways. I have it on very good authority that this was carefully thought through and the threat of action may have been used to our advantage in agreeing a settlement. I can also assure you that Sheikh Mansour and Khaldoon al-Mubarak are not people you double-cross with impunity and currently they feel they have been betrayed. That will not pass without a reaction and there will be consequences collectively and individually. Watch this space.

Poppycock.

You're suggesting that City never fancied the big fight, and the small fight (over interpretation / assessment) simply wasn't worth the hassle in the end.
The considerations about the big fight would have been ongoing since we were notified on FFP being on the horizon. So if we chose not to fight that battle, fair enough, but it would have been decided some time ago.

The 'considerations' that City had to balance have always been there. IF we had to battle with UEFA, how would what affect our image, the views on the sponsors, the fans etc etc. That's been the case for the last 4 or 5 years, not the last few months, and therefore surely there was a strategy already at hand for whatever eventuality transpired with UEFA.

But this 'don't mess with the Sheik' claim sounds great... but it's not right. This isn't The Godfather! There is no fight to be had, that's why we're not fighting. He's not going to get his revenge in some grand way. The club will ride out the fairly minimal punishment, and then comply. Effectively we've clung onto the drawbridge being raised and managed to scramble into the Euro Elite before it's closed, And that's mission accomplished for this stage of City's plan.

Nobody with an ounce of sense would believe we've been betrayed by UEFA. The whole world knew they weren't keen on the likes of us and PSG!
I don't see that as betrayal... it's just highly predictable from UEFA - they nit picked and managed to judge us as failing - and to be fair, we didn't allow much margin for error, and gave them chance to interpret things in their favour.

Maybe you're right though. The Sheik is deeply upset by UEFA's betrayal. We'll see. But I'd not hold my breath for some amazing showdown. There's no reason for it. Our passage into the Euro Elite is virtually done, all UEFA did was delay us in customs.
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

FanchesterCity said:
Prestwich_Blue said:
FanchesterCity said:
But for all of City's threat to take it to court, the fact remains - they didn't.
You're getting two things mixed up here. City felt they had a good case to take the decision to CAS on the grounds that there had been an abuse of process over the way UEFA changed their rules after the event, which meant we failed one of the key tests needed to be able to use the pre-2010 player wage exemption. That wouldn't be a challenge to FFP but to the way the assessment was applied. A full challenge to FFP could take years to go through the European justice system so would have had no impact in the short term.

But they had to balance a number of considerations in thinking about that, including how it would affect our image and brand among other things and what the consequences of challenging UEFA would have meant in other ways. I have it on very good authority that this was carefully thought through and the threat of action may have been used to our advantage in agreeing a settlement. I can also assure you that Sheikh Mansour and Khaldoon al-Mubarak are not people you double-cross with impunity and currently they feel they have been betrayed. That will not pass without a reaction and there will be consequences collectively and individually. Watch this space.

Poppycock.

You're suggesting that City never fancied the big fight, and the small fight (over interpretation / assessment) simply wasn't worth the hassle in the end.
The considerations about the big fight would have been ongoing since we were notified on FFP being on the horizon. So if we chose not to fight that battle, fair enough, but it would have been decided some time ago.

The 'considerations' that City had to balance have always been there. IF we had to battle with UEFA, how would what affect our image, the views on the sponsors, the fans etc etc. That's been the case for the last 4 or 5 years, not the last few months, and therefore surely there was a strategy already at hand for whatever eventuality transpired with UEFA.

But this 'don't mess with the Sheik' claim sounds great... but it's not right. This isn't The Godfather! There is no fight to be had, that's why we're not fighting. He's not going to get his revenge in some grand way. The club will ride out the fairly minimal punishment, and then comply. Effectively we've club onto the drawbridge being raised and managed to scramble in before it's closed, And that's mission accomplished for this stage of City's plan.

Nobody with an ounce of sense would believe we've been betrayed by UEFA. The whole world knew they weren't keen on the likes of us and PSG!
I don't see that as betrayal... it's just highly predictable from UEFA.

Maybe you're right though. The Sheik is deeply upset by UEFA's betrayal. We'll see. But I'd not hold my breath for some amazing showdown. There's no reason for it. Our passage into the Euro Elite is virtually done, all UEFA did was delay us in customs.
You've made some good contributions to this debate but you really do not know what you're talking about above. Sorry to be so blunt but that's the only way I can say it. You're guessing whereas I know. We have documentary evidence of assurances given by UEFA that weren't upheld when the crunch came. The fact that they changed the rule regarding the wage exemption in a way that if you passed it in 2012, you failed in 2013 should be evidence enough. There's a long game to be played regarding the future of FFP (and you are quite right it won't disappear completely) but there's things that may happen in the short term where the connection may not be immediately apparent.
 

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