City & FFP | 2020/21 Accounts released | Revenues of £569.8m, £2.4m profit (p 2395)

Re: City & FFP (continued)

Hamann Pineapple said:
Platini is testing the water. Deliberate small sanctions. Any acceptance of any punishment is recognising the validity of FFP by the clubs. I expect PSG to take them to the cleaners.

Nah, I think this is the worst it will get because clubs are slowly bringing themselves to break even anyway. The fundamentals of FFP are fine because they actually recommend what many see as good business practice (don't spend what you don't have). It goes wrong however when they start handing out sanctions to teams who are in no financial trouble but have made a loss despite having owners who are willing to substantiate those losses. The worst UEFA can do is hand out small time sanctions, anything worst and they are bringing their own rules into disrepute which won't stand up in court.

I think any legal challenges will first be based upon the sanction and it's severity and I'm sure there are many options with respect to an indepedent appeal which does not involve UEFA. Anything beyond that and it becomes a direct challenge to FFP.o I'm pretty sure a small fine and a limitation of the squad wouldn't really be any sanction. Looking further down the line though we are well on the way towards fully complying with FFP so UEFA and their cronies become a total irrelevance. I'm pretty sure PSG are structuring their finances to comply too however probably using dodgy means but probably not...
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

CityPar said:
Hamann Pineapple said:
Platini is testing the water. Deliberate small sanctions. Any acceptance of any punishment is recognising the validity of FFP by the clubs. I expect PSG to take them to the cleaners.

This is where City have a big decision to make IMO. No doubt they've made it already but that decision is not out in the public forum yet. Assuming we do accept the fine/squad reduction the we effectively accept FFP. It's a watershed moment......

We've accepted FFP already by the very nature of our actions over the past 2 or 3 years. That's not in doubt.

But presumably we've played ball on the assumption/understanding/agreement - whichever applies - that so long as we made all the right efforts and were on track to break-even in the short term, then no really damaging santions would apply.

Assuming all this latest media stuff is just hot air, and no heavy sanctions will apply, then it's just carry on, business as usual. I suppose the potential boat-rocking will be if the rumours are true and UEFA seek to impose something with real bite. I say IF, because we really don't know, do we. But if they are seeking to do this, then we do have a decision to make. Do we continue to play nice, or start playing nasty.
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

inbetween said:
Hamann Pineapple said:
Platini is testing the water. Deliberate small sanctions. Any acceptance of any punishment is recognising the validity of FFP by the clubs. I expect PSG to take them to the cleaners.

Nah, I think this is the worst it will get because clubs are slowly bringing themselves to break even anyway. The fundamentals of FFP are fine because they actually recommend what many see as good business practice (don't spend what you don't have). It goes wrong however when they start handing out sanctions to teams who are in no financial trouble but have made a loss despite having owners who are willing to substantiate those losses. The worst UEFA can do is hand out small time sanctions, anything worst and they are bringing their own rules into disrepute which won't stand up in court.

I think any legal challenges will first be based upon the sanction and it's severity and I'm sure there are many options with respect to an indepedent appeal which does not involve UEFA. Anything beyond that and it becomes a direct challenge to FFP.o I'm pretty sure a small fine and a limitation of the squad wouldn't really be any sanction. Looking further down the line though we are well on the way towards fully complying with FFP so UEFA and their cronies become a total irrelevance. I'm pretty sure PSG are structuring their finances to comply too however probably using dodgy means but probably not...
We already have a direct challenge to the legality of FFP from Jean-Louis Dupont, one of the Lawyers who won the Bosman case and got free transfers introduced.
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

Chippy_boy said:
CityPar said:
Hamann Pineapple said:
Platini is testing the water. Deliberate small sanctions. Any acceptance of any punishment is recognising the validity of FFP by the clubs. I expect PSG to take them to the cleaners.

This is where City have a big decision to make IMO. No doubt they've made it already but that decision is not out in the public forum yet. Assuming we do accept the fine/squad reduction the we effectively accept FFP. It's a watershed moment......

We've accepted FFP already by the very nature of our actions over the past 2 or 3 years. That's not in doubt.

But presumably we've played ball on the assumption/understanding/agreement - whichever applies - that so long as we made all the right efforts and were on track to break-even in the short term, then no really damaging santions would apply.

Assuming all this latest media stuff is just hot air, and no heavy sanctions will apply, then it's just carry on, business as usual. I suppose the potential boat-rocking will be if the rumours are true and UEFA seek to impose something with real bite. I say IF, because we really don't know, do we. But if they are seeking to do this, then we do have a decision to make. Do we continue to play nice, or start playing nasty.


Best appraisal on the entire thread.

We would arguably have reached at least one Champions League final if we had gone about previous intentions on certain transfer targets.

If City do learn we have been knifed in the back, having also had the integrity of our owner and auditors called into question, it will go all the way to the European Courts.
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

What players are being sold to cover this?

I have a funny fart feeling that someone big will be gone this summer
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

inbetween said:
Looking further down the line though we are well on the way towards fully complying with FFP so UEFA and their cronies become a total irrelevance. I'm pretty sure PSG are structuring their finances to comply too however probably using dodgy means but probably not...

It depends how much further down the line you look. The fact is for many a long year we are not going to have a global fan base and revenue streams that can match that of Barca, Real, Scum, etc. So whether we like it or not these rules place us at a considerable disadvantage compared to the very biggeest clubs in terms of what we can spend on players transfers and wages, even though we can afford it. This is not "a total irrelevance". It's a travesty and a disgrace.
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

tolmie's hairdoo said:
Chippy_boy said:
CityPar said:
This is where City have a big decision to make IMO. No doubt they've made it already but that decision is not out in the public forum yet. Assuming we do accept the fine/squad reduction the we effectively accept FFP. It's a watershed moment......

We've accepted FFP already by the very nature of our actions over the past 2 or 3 years. That's not in doubt.

But presumably we've played ball on the assumption/understanding/agreement - whichever applies - that so long as we made all the right efforts and were on track to break-even in the short term, then no really damaging santions would apply.

Assuming all this latest media stuff is just hot air, and no heavy sanctions will apply, then it's just carry on, business as usual. I suppose the potential boat-rocking will be if the rumours are true and UEFA seek to impose something with real bite. I say IF, because we really don't know, do we. But if they are seeking to do this, then we do have a decision to make. Do we continue to play nice, or start playing nasty.


Best appraisal on the entire thread.

We would arguably have reached at least one Champions League final if we had gone about previous intentions on certain transfer targets.

If City do learn we have been knifed in the back, having also had the integrity of our owner and auditors called into question, it will go all the way to the European Courts.

Somewhere along the road, the integrity of the people involved in the whole ffp system & those who influenced its creation should be brought into question. It's so obviously bent, it's ridiculous. They don't even bother trying to hide it anymore.
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

aguero93:20 said:
inbetween said:
Hamann Pineapple said:
Platini is testing the water. Deliberate small sanctions. Any acceptance of any punishment is recognising the validity of FFP by the clubs. I expect PSG to take them to the cleaners.

Nah, I think this is the worst it will get because clubs are slowly bringing themselves to break even anyway. The fundamentals of FFP are fine because they actually recommend what many see as good business practice (don't spend what you don't have). It goes wrong however when they start handing out sanctions to teams who are in no financial trouble but have made a loss despite having owners who are willing to substantiate those losses. The worst UEFA can do is hand out small time sanctions, anything worst and they are bringing their own rules into disrepute which won't stand up in court.

I think any legal challenges will first be based upon the sanction and it's severity and I'm sure there are many options with respect to an indepedent appeal which does not involve UEFA. Anything beyond that and it becomes a direct challenge to FFP.o I'm pretty sure a small fine and a limitation of the squad wouldn't really be any sanction. Looking further down the line though we are well on the way towards fully complying with FFP so UEFA and their cronies become a total irrelevance. I'm pretty sure PSG are structuring their finances to comply too however probably using dodgy means but probably not...
We already have a direct challenge to the legality of FFP from Jean-Louis Dupont, one of the Lawyers who won the Bosman case and got free transfers introduced.

Indeed but that is a case for the EU, a judgement is due this year but it might just mean that certain parts are made incompatible with EU law rather than the whole thing being forced to be scrapped. It could very easily be amended without those parts depending on how it is seen. I think they will have to be seen right now to pussyfoot around until a judgement is made. If it is made legal then I'm afraid they can do whatever they want with it from there on.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.soccernomics-agency.com/?p=469" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.soccernomics-agency.com/?p=469</a>
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

inbetween said:
aguero93:20 said:
inbetween said:
Nah, I think this is the worst it will get because clubs are slowly bringing themselves to break even anyway. The fundamentals of FFP are fine because they actually recommend what many see as good business practice (don't spend what you don't have). It goes wrong however when they start handing out sanctions to teams who are in no financial trouble but have made a loss despite having owners who are willing to substantiate those losses. The worst UEFA can do is hand out small time sanctions, anything worst and they are bringing their own rules into disrepute which won't stand up in court.

I think any legal challenges will first be based upon the sanction and it's severity and I'm sure there are many options with respect to an indepedent appeal which does not involve UEFA. Anything beyond that and it becomes a direct challenge to FFP.o I'm pretty sure a small fine and a limitation of the squad wouldn't really be any sanction. Looking further down the line though we are well on the way towards fully complying with FFP so UEFA and their cronies become a total irrelevance. I'm pretty sure PSG are structuring their finances to comply too however probably using dodgy means but probably not...
We already have a direct challenge to the legality of FFP from Jean-Louis Dupont, one of the Lawyers who won the Bosman case and got free transfers introduced.

Indeed but that is a case for the EU, a judgement is due this year but it might just mean that certain parts are made incompatible with EU law rather than the whole thing being forced to be scrapped. It could very easily be amended without those parts depending on how it is seen. I think they will have to be seen right now to pussyfoot around until a judgement is made. If it is made legal then I'm afraid they can do whatever they want with it from there on.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.soccernomics-agency.com/?p=469" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.soccernomics-agency.com/?p=469</a>
It won't be left in it's current form imo, the EU court have a duty to make a judgement that brings FFP in line with EU law and makes it fit for purpose, could be really fucking funny if they changed it to a restriction on debt levels and fucked the rags.
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2326788/Manchester-City-struggling-new-shirt-sponsor.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... onsor.html</a>

One source said City wanted a new shirt sponsor for 2013-14 but ran out of time, with limited options to do a quick deal. Glick is understood to have told his contracted consultants he wants £25m a year at least.

Etihad’s 10-year, £340m deal to sponsor City’s shirt, stadium and academy is about to enter its third year and Etihad will remain significantly involved in the club. ‘Etihad will stay as a major commercial partner because they are effectively helping to underwrite the club,’ a source says.

City want to replace Etihad to gain extra revenue, needed keep up with clubs like United, Chelsea and Arsenal. It is anticipated Etihad’s cash will still be injected into City, albeit as sponsorship of the stadium, academy and other areas
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

I thought FFP was to protect clubs that are being threatened by administration and bankruptcy by spending too much money like Portsmouth? Yet all I hear is how City are doing football and other big clubs an injustice by spending money.
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

what rubbish UEFA spout:

Some clubs have enormous debts or do not pay their debts. Can those clubs still comply with financial fair play?

Clubs need to pay invoices and debts in a timely manner. This means that clubs have to pay their players or transfer fees as agreed in contracts, otherwise they may be sanctioned by UEFA's competent bodies

Will financial fair play make it impossible for smaller clubs to overcome bigger clubs in financial terms?

There are large differences between the wealth of different clubs and countries, which predate and are irrespective of financial fair play. The aim of financial fair play is not to make all clubs equal in size and wealth, but to encourage clubs to build for success rather than continually seeking a 'quick fix'. Football clubs need an improved environment where investing in the future is better rewarded so that more clubs can be credible long-term investment prospects.

By favouring investments in youth and stadium infrastructure and by setting the acceptable deficits in absolute million € terms and not relative percentage terms, the break-even assessment has been structured to be less restrictive to smaller and medium-sized clubs. In time, more smaller and medium-sized clubs will have potential to grow.
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

inbetween said:
aguero93:20 said:
inbetween said:
Nah, I think this is the worst it will get because clubs are slowly bringing themselves to break even anyway. The fundamentals of FFP are fine because they actually recommend what many see as good business practice (don't spend what you don't have). It goes wrong however when they start handing out sanctions to teams who are in no financial trouble but have made a loss despite having owners who are willing to substantiate those losses. The worst UEFA can do is hand out small time sanctions, anything worst and they are bringing their own rules into disrepute which won't stand up in court.

I think any legal challenges will first be based upon the sanction and it's severity and I'm sure there are many options with respect to an indepedent appeal which does not involve UEFA. Anything beyond that and it becomes a direct challenge to FFP.o I'm pretty sure a small fine and a limitation of the squad wouldn't really be any sanction. Looking further down the line though we are well on the way towards fully complying with FFP so UEFA and their cronies become a total irrelevance. I'm pretty sure PSG are structuring their finances to comply too however probably using dodgy means but probably not...
We already have a direct challenge to the legality of FFP from Jean-Louis Dupont, one of the Lawyers who won the Bosman case and got free transfers introduced.

Indeed but that is a case for the EU, a judgement is due this year but it might just mean that certain parts are made incompatible with EU law rather than the whole thing being forced to be scrapped. It could very easily be amended without those parts depending on how it is seen. I think they will have to be seen right now to pussyfoot around until a judgement is made. If it is made legal then I'm afraid they can do whatever they want with it from there on.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.soccernomics-agency.com/?p=469" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.soccernomics-agency.com/?p=469</a>

yeah, but the parts UEFA will have trouble with legally are the parts they are using to directly attack us, so once they have to amend it into something more suitable they'll have an issue as it will the status quo who will be badgering them to drop it as it will hurt them.

The only way FFPR ends up legal is through the use of lots of very big envelopes.
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

PSmyth07 said:
I thought FFP was to protect clubs that are being threatened by administration and bankruptcy by spending too much money like Portsmouth? Yet all I hear is how City are doing football and other big clubs an injustice by spending money.

You don't have to think for very long to realise what a complete sham it is, do you. And given that conclusion can be so quickly and easily reached by anyone with an IQ of more than 50, then what becomes immediately clear also is how bent the media really are. Were that not the case, all the headlines would be about what a ridiculous, corrupt sham FFPR is. But no, they are all happy to jump on the City-bashing bandwaggon. Draw your own conclusions from that eh.
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

aguero93:20 said:
inbetween said:
aguero93:20 said:
We already have a direct challenge to the legality of FFP from Jean-Louis Dupont, one of the Lawyers who won the Bosman case and got free transfers introduced.

Indeed but that is a case for the EU, a judgement is due this year but it might just mean that certain parts are made incompatible with EU law rather than the whole thing being forced to be scrapped. It could very easily be amended without those parts depending on how it is seen. I think they will have to be seen right now to pussyfoot around until a judgement is made. If it is made legal then I'm afraid they can do whatever they want with it from there on.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.soccernomics-agency.com/?p=469" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.soccernomics-agency.com/?p=469</a>
It won't be left in it's current form imo, the EU court have a duty to make a judgement that brings FFP in line with EU law and makes it fit for purpose, could be really fucking funny if they changed it to a restriction on debt levels and fucked the rags.

Indeed, to be honest that's what it should be because it is irrelevant how much we spend whilst it is guaranteed by the owner, we aren't going to go bust anytime soon.... United however now have to pay the same amount of debt with a total loss of income due to no CL football and they have to spend just to get it back which now cannot happen. At a time when they want to spend they simply can't because of the rules they funnily enough voted for!

If anything FFP might cost them their top 4 place for a very long time! The same goes for Liverpool who might get in the Champions League next year but if they want to spend money on players that will keep them in it, they've no chance!
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

blueparrot said:
jrb said:
I wonder if the training academy can be broken up, re sponsorship deals. The bridge, the training academy itself, the mini stadium, the central building, etc?

I'd have thought under the campus umbrella the club can do what they like with the agreement of Etihad especially if it was done by unrelated companies such as Nike, or BT. So I think we could have something like the Nike stadium or BT Bridge as part of the Etihad Campus.
I'd believed this to be true from when they were still clearing land for the campus unless anyone can disabuse me of the notion?
Etihad just sponsor the Campus overall with individual parts up for grabs?
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

Chippy_boy said:
CityPar said:
Hamann Pineapple said:
Platini is testing the water. Deliberate small sanctions. Any acceptance of any punishment is recognising the validity of FFP by the clubs. I expect PSG to take them to the cleaners.

This is where City have a big decision to make IMO. No doubt they've made it already but that decision is not out in the public forum yet. Assuming we do accept the fine/squad reduction the we effectively accept FFP. It's a watershed moment......

We've accepted FFP already by the very nature of our actions over the past 2 or 3 years. That's not in doubt.

.

I think we would argue that we haven't accepted the principle of FFP, merely done what we always intended to in implementing our business strategy. FFP has accelerated that process, we incurred larger initial losses as a result of FFP, in the race to beat the drawbridge. And we'll probably break even a couple of years earlier than intended. But breakeven was always the intention. FFP simply made the process less orderly. We've definitely modified our strategy as a result of FFP. so in that sense alone perhaps you could say we've accepted FFP, but I dont think we've done anything that could be held against us in a legal sense.
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/bosman-lawyer-battling-ffp-were-happy-man-city-we-dont-want-another-pompey" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/bos ... her-pompey</a>
Good article this:
Bosman lawyer battling FFP: We're happy with Man City, we don't want another Pompey

The man who changed football forever says UEFA's Financial Fair Play system is illegal. Instead, he tells Richard Edwards, if teams like Chelsea and Monaco want to overspend, make them put the money up front - and charge them a 10% luxury tax...


Jean-Louis Dupont may not be an immediately recognisable name to football lovers, but the impact this bespectacled lawyer has had on the game since 1995 is incalculable.

Back in 1990, Dupont was a fresh-faced University graduate, combining his fledgling law career with his work at the European Commission. Then he met a little-known Belgian footballer by the name of Jean-Marc Bosman. Now, almost 25 years later, he continues to be the scourge of the football authorities.

When UEFA chief Michel Platini heard that Dupont was helping another little-known Belgian resident - this time an Italian agent by the name of Daniel Striani - in a fight against UEFA’s Financial Fair Play legislation, he quipped that the lawyer was “bored” and “looking for work”.

If history has taught UEFA anything, however, it’s that it’s never wise to underestimate a man who has already changed the course of football once and has had a taste for it ever since. For his part, Dupont claimed that his Bosman challenge was never taken seriously by the football authorities.

“I thought it would be a pretty small case when we started,” he said. “But the authorities refused to take us seriously. That is partly why we added the restriction on foreign players to the case, although it was clearly a restraint of trade.”

In short, Dupont released the beast that European football has subsequently become – a beast that UEFA hoped Financial Fair Play (FFP) would help contain. According to the Belgian, however, it’s doing nothing of the sort.


“When UEFA say that they want every club to spend what they earn you say ‘Yes, this is right’,” he tells FourFourTwo. “But you need to go into precise economic and legal analysis in order to reach the conclusion that it does not work at all.

“I know it looks like a good idea but it doesn’t work and it makes things worse.”

Dupont himself isn’t opposed to FFP as a means of preventing those who haven’t got the money from using football as a vanity project, before fleeing when the burden of debt gets too great. Ask any Portsmouth fan and they’ll tell you that might be a decent idea.

What he objects to is the idea that people who have the money and are able to spend the cash can’t – even if they can guarantee it.

Break-even

“We’re challenging one rule, which is the break-even rule,” he says. “This says that the owner of the club can’t overspend even if it is with his own money. This is not in line with EU law.”

The ‘break-even’ rule is perhaps the most fundamental element of FFP, but in the complaint filed with the European Commission in May 2013, Dupont outlines the impact it could have on almost every part of the game.

“The break-even rule prevents football clubs from freely determining their level of expenses, since it imposes a ceiling on their deficit, a limit to their investment, even if such deficit/investment is entirely covered by the owners. In particular, the clubs are limited in their freedom to hire players, since the break-even rule confines the amount of transfer fee and salaries clubs can offer.”

And the impact on the players?

“By the same token, some football players will not be transferred [as such transfers will not take place] and some players will be offered lower salaries. Even more, some players will not be offered a renewal of contract - even on lower conditions - or a first contract.”

Italian agent Striani rasied the complaint believing that he too will be hit by the regulations. So with another transfer window drawing to a close, what’s the alternative?

“That’s not for us to come up with,” says Dupont. “This is a matter for UEFA. But for the sake of the rationale, the current break-even rules mean that overspending is prohibited, it’s as simple as that. Yes, there are transitional rules but forget about it, the principle is that over-spending is prohibited.


“We say that over-spending should be prohibited unless it is fully guaranteed in advanced. We will say that we don’t want a Portsmouth but we’re happy with a Manchester City. If you’re the owner of a club that makes 100 (euros) but you want to inject an extra 50 (euros) every year, you can do that but you have to put the money in the bank by the first of June for the next season. Instead of prohibiting overspending you prohibit non-guaranteed over-spending.”

And for those clubs that do rely on their owners to dip into their own pockets every season, Dupont has a novel idea.

“Since you want to overspend with your own club, then for every euro or pound that you over-spend you will pay 10 or 15 cents as a ‘luxury tax’ so there will be some sort of solidarity fund that UEFA can spend for the good of the game,” he says.

Economic scholars in agreement

Of course, for every regulation there are loopholes and clubs across Europe are frantically doing all they can to jump through them. For Dupont though, the argument is simple, and he tells FFT that he’s merely carrying out the action that others have been calling for since FFP was first agreed upon in September 2009.

“It’s not just me saying that this makes sense, it’s all the economic scholars that have written about it too,” says Dupont. “All of them say that when you look at the two objectives that UEFA supposedly is pursuing, namely financial stability for club football and maintaining the integrity of the game, those two objectives are better served with this alternative system.

“And I’m just telling you what I read before we even lodged the complaint. If we win it’s not the end of anything, it’s just that instead of having this rule UEFA will be better placed to make it efficient. It’s not a liberal fight saying ‘no restraint of trade the owners should be able to do what they want’.”

It was Eric Morecambe who memorably told Andre Previn that he was “playing all the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order.” Now Dupont believes its UEFA that is out of tune with popular and academic opinion. “UEFA are fighting against the right problem,” he says. “But with the wrong answer.”
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

PSmyth07 said:
I thought FFP was to protect clubs that are being threatened by administration and bankruptcy by spending too much money like Portsmouth? Yet all I hear is how City are doing football and other big clubs an injustice by spending money.

FFP has one goal and one goal only. To stop Manchester City.
 

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