City Football Group (CFG) buy into Chinese club Sichuan Jiuniu FC (from Chengdu)

[Falastur]

If we are going to move into South America I would have though that Argentina, would have been a better choice Uruguay. Mainly because of our Argentinian connection.

I don't follow - unless you are saying we would get more fans because of Aguero/Zab/etc's popularity back home? I don't think that's a consideration, though, and I suspect that any bond between those players and their fans wouldn't be strong enough to persuade Argentinian fans to jump ship on their club allegiances anyway.

Other than that, I'm not sure how that link would help out a future CFG team?

I understand what people are saying but look at it this way
If we want to build a club in certain countries to compete and grow/expand our appeal with success in each side, then Uruguay is such a better option than Argentina

We have clubs in America, Japan, Australia.. Ok?
All of which are weak nations RE their footballing leagues, albeit much more recognisable and seemingly higher grossing nations than Uruguay
But we have a much larger chance of success with the actual football team we are setting up in such countries than if we go to Argentina and try to stick a side into their primera division

I dont know fully, but its much easier to set up franchise sides in USA or Australia isnt it due to the relatively new structures and way those leagues are ran

In argentina we cant just make a side and pop it into their primera league with the likes of River Plate, San Lorenzo, Racing etc
Their leagues are hugely competitive and they have a B division etc where sides are trying to get promoted from, just like in England

MLS/Aussie A League doesnt work like that, you cant get put into the top divisons unless you pay/have the club size and grading, if im not mistaken

I know the Uruguay league will have promotion etc but surely its easier for us to start over down there..

Thats my take on it anyway!

I know what you're saying, but it's like arguing that because Scotland has a weaker league than England, it would be easier to "pop a side" in there. Sure, it might genuinely be easier to create a side and power-level it up to the SPL but it wouldn't change the fact that that club would be despised by Scottish fans because of its perceived nature as a forced plant; an unwanted franchise side. You couldn't just form a new side in Scotland and expect it to be accepted in the way that it would be in the US or Australia - two countries with a culture of teams forming, disbanding, relocating, selling their franchise licences etc - and it's the same in Uruguay.

I expect CFG to be looking to buy a side there, not create a new one, and if CFG does form an entirely new outfit then I will honestly despair because it will shred my belief in CFG's respect for football as an institution rather than a giant game of Monopoly. We need to work with the structures that exist, and that means not treating Uruguay like a franchise league just because it's a smaller footballing nation than Brazil or Argentina.

 

[Maly]

I understand what people are saying but look at it this way
If we want to build a club in certain countries to compete and grow/expand our appeal with success in each side, then Uruguay is such a better option than Argentina

We have clubs in America, Japan, Australia.. Ok?
All of which are weak nations RE their footballing leagues, albeit much more recognisable and seemingly higher grossing nations than Uruguay
But we have a much larger chance of success with the actual football team we are setting up in such countries than if we go to Argentina and try to stick a side into their primera division

I dont know fully, but its much easier to set up franchise sides in USA or Australia isnt it due to the relatively new structures and way those leagues are ran

In argentina we cant just make a side and pop it into their primera league with the likes of River Plate, San Lorenzo, Racing etc
Their leagues are hugely competitive and they have a B division etc where sides are trying to get promoted from, just like in England

MLS/Aussie A League doesnt work like that, you cant get put into the top divisons unless you pay/have the club size and grading, if im not mistaken

I know the Uruguay league will have promotion etc but surely its easier for us to start over down there..

Thats my take on it anyway!

DJ4 - smashing midfielders with big tackles as per ;)

Just to clarify bud....we're looking to buy a club over there, not start a new one.

No idea why Uruguay has been chosen, but I'd guess you're in the right lines with regards to not upsetting the apple cart for the big South American teams such as those you mentioned plus the big Brazilian teams.

Again, a bit of guess work by yours truly, but it's more than likely that the big players in South America have huge influence over CONMEBOL, (brown envelopes full of cash are common place over there) hence us looking at Uruguay & not Agentina or Brazil.....imagine the uproar in South America if we ruined the Brazilian or Argentinian leagues the way we've ruined football in England!!

 

[Maly]

I don't follow - unless you are saying we would get more fans because of Aguero/Zab/etc's popularity back home? I don't think that's a consideration, though, and I suspect that any bond between those players and their fans wouldn't be strong enough to persuade Argentinian fans to jump ship on their club allegiances anyway.

Other than that, I'm not sure how that link would help out a future CFG team?



I know what you're saying, but it's like arguing that because Scotland has a weaker league than England, it would be easier to "pop a side" in there. Sure, it might genuinely be easier to create a side and power-level it up to the SPL but it wouldn't change the fact that that club would be despised by Scottish fans because of its perceived nature as a forced plant; an unwanted franchise side. You couldn't just form a new side in Scotland and expect it to be accepted in the way that it would be in the US or Australia - two countries with a culture of teams forming, disbanding, relocating, selling their franchise licences etc - and it's the same in Uruguay.

I expect CFG to be looking to buy a side there, not create a new one, and if CFG does form an entirely new outfit then I will honestly despair because it will shred my belief in CFG's respect for football as an institution rather than a giant game of Monopoly. We need to work with the structures that exist, and that means not treating Uruguay like a franchise league just because it's a smaller footballing nation than Brazil or Argentina.

Yep, looking to buy a club not start a new one

 

[Danny_Johnson4]

DJ4 - smashing midfielders with big tackles as per ;)

Just to clarify bud....we're looking to buy a club over there, not start a new one.

No idea why Uruguay has been chosen, but I'd guess you're in the right lines with regards to not upsetting the apple cart for the big South American teams such as those you mentioned plus the big Brazilian teams.

Again, a bit of guess work by yours truly, but it's more than likely that the big players in South America have huge influence over CONMEBOL, (brown envelopes full of cash are common place over there) hence us looking at Uruguay & not Agentina or Brazil.....imagine the uproar in South America if we ruined the Brazilian or Argentinian leagues the way we've ruined football in England!!

King Mal!!!!!

 

[Maly]

King Mal!!!!!

Ruining the Lancashire & Cheshire League ;)

 

[WRicko]

More to the point, the Marinos are Nissan's company team. It's my suspicion that Nissan offered us a share in the club and the chance to reform its operational practices in order to solidify their corporate partnership with us, but they don't want to actually lose control of the club because it is literally a part of their company. Don't forget that in that area of Asia it's frequent for top teams to be actual divisions of multinational companies (or in some countries, even represent different branches of the government). I suspect there's a huge nostalgic/honour-based element that simply won't allow them to be seen to be passing the team over to CFG control.

There's been various talk over the years since we bought into them that CFG wanted to expand their share, but despite all that nothing has ever happened. It doesn't seem to me like there would be any roadblocks in our way save for Nissan simply not being willing to sell any more.

I'm not sure how this would help us. In your plan, all of the profit is being generated in Uruguay, but Uruguay is one of the places where investment is less restricted (AFAIK) so that club would have no need for any sort of player development and selling system to be built around it. Meanwhile, any profits made in Uruguay could not be used to assist those clubs in CFG which actually do operate under FFP or salary caps etc.

There's definitely ways that the system can be used to farm out young talents, but I don't see why trying to arrange it as a money-spinner like this would be of use to us - it would be like a billionaire discovering a tax loop he could exploit using an offshore tax haven, but then finding out that any profit he made through the loop could only be spent in shops on that island alone.

Manchester City are past FFP really now

NYCFC will be one of the richer clubs eventually if not already and can have CFG loan players and the league will always be restricted so that we wont need to spend so much although over time this will change as more clubs join the league but this will also add to the revenue side. The draft should also help keep costs low

Yokohama are really going to stay as they are I imagine and run by Nissan

Melbourne will always be restricted in spending but so will its costs the league will grow but not as much as the US this will help its revenue and like NYFC they can have loans off us and other cfg clubs and save money this way

For all the flaws in FFP and similar rules which we have done on here and I despise the rules as much as other city fans if not more it does actually seem to be reducing costs well until now with the new TV deal. The same should apply to other clubs in other leagues with other similar restrictions

I do not expect our owners to be that bothered by taxes the investment has to add up first I suspect it relates to footballer development more than commercial given the size of the market but the tax benefits could be a big bonus is what I am saying

 

[Falastur]

Manchester City are past FFP really now

NYCFC will be one of the richer clubs eventually if not already and can have CFG loan players and the league will always be restricted so that we wont need to spend so much although over time this will change as more clubs join the league but this will also add to the revenue side. The draft should also help keep costs low

Yokohama are really going to stay as they are I imagine and run by Nissan

Melbourne will always be restricted in spending but so will its costs the league will grow but not as much as the US this will help its revenue and like NYFC they can have loans off us and other cfg clubs and save money this way

For all the flaws in FFP and similar rules which we have done on here and I despise the rules as much as other city fans if not more it does actually seem to be reducing costs well until now with the new TV deal. The same should apply to other clubs in other leagues with other similar restrictions

I do not expect our owners to be that bothered by taxes the investment has to add up first I suspect it relates to footballer development more than commercial given the size of the market but the tax benefits could be a big bonus is what I am saying

Not sure I agree with a couple of your points, although I might just be misunderstanding them. I agree with the others though:

I agree NYCFC will be (to be frank, already are) one of the richer clubs in MLS and have advantages, but I'm not sure how much this helps them. MLS is set up with the express point of preventing outside money from affecting the competitive balance. The DPs are about the only way excess money can have any influence. It doesn't even matter if NYCFC ends up having 10x more fans than all other clubs put together and can generate millions in internal revenue, because MLS even forces all of the teams to divide their merchandising income equally across all clubs. The only way of generating revenue which you can keep for yourself there is to sell players, which is not something the league specialises in - but then even that is of marginal relevance, since it doesn't actually allow you to spend any extra money on wages etc. If anything, any sort of profit-making in MLS is for the exclusive benefit of the owner's back pocket, not for the club itself at all.

Also, I'm not sure I get you over the idea that FFP has reduced costs. I can't think of any costs its reduced. Which ones exactly are you referring to?

 

[WRicko]

Not sure I agree with a couple of your points, although I might just be misunderstanding them. I agree with the others though:

I agree NYCFC will be (to be frank, already are) one of the richer clubs in MLS and have advantages, but I'm not sure how much this helps them. MLS is set up with the express point of preventing outside money from affecting the competitive balance. The DPs are about the only way excess money can have any influence. It doesn't even matter if NYCFC ends up having 10x more fans than all other clubs put together and can generate millions in internal revenue, because MLS even forces all of the teams to divide their merchandising income equally across all clubs. The only way of generating revenue which you can keep for yourself there is to sell players, which is not something the league specialises in - but then even that is of marginal relevance, since it doesn't actually allow you to spend any extra money on wages etc. If anything, any sort of profit-making in MLS is for the exclusive benefit of the owner's back pocket, not for the club itself at all.

Also, I'm not sure I get you over the idea that FFP has reduced costs. I can't think of any costs its reduced. Which ones exactly are you referring to?

I think we are in agreement

I was suggesting that we use the Uruguayan could be used as a tax loophole by getting them loaded up with players and then them selling them at the lower rate of tax than the other clubs within the CFG group

another poster said that other clubs within CFG would need these funds more because of FFP and other restrictions in other league MLS and Australia. I was saying that the restrictions also lower costs for NYCFC and Melbourne its not like they are competing with clubs with £30 million players. I had not really thought about DPs your absolutely correct. As you say NYCFC are going to be or are rich. Melbourne could be the same. I would reiterate that these clubs can benefit from reduced costs through loans through CFG and another thing the reduced cost of scouting and marketing using CFG.

In the case of City we are past FFP FFP As flawed as I think it was / is it did reduce or rather slow costs I think there was a report saying spending and debt had fallen

 

[S04]

I just see advantages with a CFG club in Uruguay.. Ok, there´s about 25 clubs in Montevideo alone but I´m sure at least one of them would welcome a new owner or part owner even.
As for branding, always a delicate subject I´m sure a fair few clubs play in Skyblue and white.. as it´s their national colours and perhaps we might add a city somewhere without causing a riot.
The Uruguayan tax rules for football clubs are as mentioned very much to local clubs advantage, something to keep in mind in regards to transfers.

 

[Shaelumstash]

I don't follow - unless you are saying we would get more fans because of Aguero/Zab/etc's popularity back home? I don't think that's a consideration, though, and I suspect that any bond between those players and their fans wouldn't be strong enough to persuade Argentinian fans to jump ship on their club allegiances anyway.

Other than that, I'm not sure how that link would help out a future CFG team?



I know what you're saying, but it's like arguing that because Scotland has a weaker league than England, it would be easier to "pop a side" in there. Sure, it might genuinely be easier to create a side and power-level it up to the SPL but it wouldn't change the fact that that club would be despised by Scottish fans because of its perceived nature as a forced plant; an unwanted franchise side. You couldn't just form a new side in Scotland and expect it to be accepted in the way that it would be in the US or Australia - two countries with a culture of teams forming, disbanding, relocating, selling their franchise licences etc - and it's the same in Uruguay.

I expect CFG to be looking to buy a side there, not create a new one, and if CFG does form an entirely new outfit then I will honestly despair because it will shred my belief in CFG's respect for football as an institution rather than a giant game of Monopoly. We need to work with the structures that exist, and that means not treating Uruguay like a franchise league just because it's a smaller footballing nation than Brazil or Argentina.

You're absolutely spot on, mate.

In Sorriano's book he talks about Barca looking at the model of having multiple clubs in multiple countries. They were at an advanced stage of creating a Barcelona franchise in Miami but they decided against it.

Sorriano goes on to talk about the model of having multiple clubs in multiple countries. He says the US and S.E. Asia would be the ideal territories to do it because there is huge wealth and a strong following for football which is in it's infancy. Hearts and minds are still to be won so there would be little or no resistance to new clubs.

He goes on to say Europe and South America have long established links to football clubs going back generations and that there would be great hostility to launching new clubs / rebranding existing ones in these areas, so he didn't think it was viable.

He also went on to say that South America and Africa would be less attractive than the US and SE Asia because there wasn't as much disposable income, making it less attractive commercially.

So South America was seen as the least attractive territory for a new club because the local fans would be resistant to it, and there is less wealth and disposable income than in other areas.

I don't know if the OP has some inside information, but going off Sorriano's book, I would be absolutely stunned if we launched a CFG club in South America. Creating a friendly link with an existing club to help in developing young players like we have with NAC Breda or Girono, possibly, but a Montevideo City FC? No chance in hell would be my guess.