City v Newcastle, Carling Cup - Post Match Thread

[Millwallawayveteran1988]

We´re in the fifth year of this cycle I believe and cycles do come to an end you know

Is this happening now to us? There are clearly players who think they´ve done it all and don´t have the desire. Time they were shipped out. Do we have the natural replacements for Yaya, Silva and Komps? Lopes would have been nice to throw in last night instead of Dave for eg. Added to this the seeming lack of intensity and pace in our side allied with what now seems a very disjointed system and you have the recipe for turmoil.

Personally I think this lot ought to have another couple of seasons (the majority anyway) left in the locker but now I think it has to be back to basics. Our best defence (Vinny, MDM) and I never thought I´d say this but god I hope Fat Frank is ready for Sunday coz we will need all the experience he can bring to bear and he doesn´t shirk from a battle.
The LB situation needs addressing in Jan as well as striker which alludes to the two players I would like to see replaced

A blip or more serious has been the recent question in regard to Citys’ form\current situation ?

Facts (as Mr Benitez would say):
Out of the League Cup, a string of poor performances.
Hopes hanging by a thread to Champions League progress to the knockout stage.
Looking off the pace when compared to Chelsea for the League title.
Yaya Toure showing next to nothing.
Fernandinho showing very little (and remember we paid £ 30 million for this player)
After a good start (2 games) Mangala looking like a poor Championship player (and we paid £ 32 million for him)
Question – when we spend over £ 30 million on any player should he not be the finished article able to help City compete at the top table of both domestic and European football ?
After a good start Fernando looking like a poor Championship player
Dzeko in the most appalling form and not even scoring goals to at least compensate
Caballero brought in to challenge Hart as apparently he is as good said our Manager i.e. no No. 1 . He has looked no where near as good as Hart.
Sagna brought in a as a good backup for Zabaleta. He has been no better than Richards and his wages are most likely higher and he is some 6 years older.
Navas a hit and miss player.
Kolarov a hit and miss player.
No pace in anything we do.
Fans cannot be blamed last night for a poor atmosphere as the players gave absolutely nothing to cheer on.

So a blip or more serious ?
If we fail to win in the Derby and lose more ground on Chelsea and maybe others in the Premier League, and fail to keep our Champions League hopes alive by beating CSKA, then I think we have to admit this is serious for City, probably for the first time since pre Mancini.

Over the past 3 and a bit seasons we have been able to overcome any poor results quickly i.e.
1) bad loss away at Liverpool 3-0 in 2011 and Tevez injured to put a dent in Champions League spot hopes, overcome by beating Utd in the FA Cup semi and winning the FA Cup and claiming 3rd in the league.
2) Going 8 points behind Utd after defeat to Arsenal away, overcome by winning last 6 games to clinch the Title
3) Having a bad 2012\2013 season under Mancini but at least we won the Charity Shield, finished 2nd in the league, beat Utd at Old Trafford and got to another FA Cup final.
4) Go out of the Champions League to Barcelona and then to Wigan in the FA Cup inside a week, compensated by winning the League Cup shortly before this.
5) Losing at Anfield and seemingly with it the Title, overcome by having a strong end to the season and winning the Title again

This looks like our biggest test yet to do such again. Surely we cannot keep having lightning strike and we end up digging ourselves out of every hole ? If we do not we could end up mimicking Utd and going from 1st to out of the Champions League spots in a season, and due to FFP we will not have £ 150 million to throw at an overhaul of the team.

Maybe our team has reached a peak ?

A lot of reasonable stuff in there. If we carry on the way we are then we will struggle to make top 4. We are way too open at the back.

The spurs result could have gone either way at one point and it's only after they missed the penalty and the chance shortly after that we took control. They could have easily scored 4 or 5 that day, west ham could have had more and last night, the most worrying of the lot, Newcastle reserves could have had 5.

We need to tighten up first and that means getting all players who don't look up for the fight out of the side.

Dzeko has to spend an extended period on the bench. We play Aguero up front with either Silva or Nasri behind him depending on injuries. The defence stays the same for the next 4/5 games and doesn't include Mangala. He has to be taken out of the firing line. We are not an experiment where we can afford the mistakes at the moment.

The next two games are huge but so were the last two after the debacle in Moscow and we failed miserably.

Pellegrini has to show what he is made of now. I don't like his tone at the moment or body language. If we can't get up for a poor rags side at home then we are fucked.

 

[mancityblue2014]

I think it was a game the players hoped to still win only putting in 50 percent. As soon as Newcastle scored it meant they would have to put in 100 percent to meet the enthusisam of the Newcastle players and score at least 2 more. I don't think any of the players could e bothered last night.

Maybe those on the pitch would rather of saved their energy and potential for injury with the derby coming up?

 

[jollylescott]

Apart from the other issues raised, I don't agree with MP's selection policy for these games. Newcastle had a 17 year old and 18 year old up front, and I have to say they at times made our expensive defenders look second rate.

We could easily have played Pozo and even Brandon Barker from the EDS squad, and they might have given our team the burst of youthful energy that we seem to need at the moment.

Pellers seems reluctant to give young players a go. I understand the pressure to win at all costs, but this must be balanced by encouraging youth.

Dare I say it, I wouldn't mind seeing Guidetti come back after his loan spell. We just need something different to shake the complacency out of some of our players.

 

[paulsimpson]

We´re in the fifth year of this cycle I believe and cycles do come to an end you know

Is this happening now to us? There are clearly players who think they´ve done it all and don´t have the desire. Time they were shipped out. Do we have the natural replacements for Yaya, Silva and Komps? Lopes would have been nice to throw in last night instead of Dave for eg. Added to this the seeming lack of intensity and pace in our side allied with what now seems a very disjointed system and you have the recipe for turmoil.

Personally I think this lot ought to have another couple of seasons (the majority anyway) left in the locker but now I think it has to be back to basics. Our best defence (Vinny, MDM) and I never thought I´d say this but god I hope Fat Frank is ready for Sunday coz we will need all the experience he can bring to bear and he doesn´t shirk from a battle.
The LB situation needs addressing in Jan as well as striker which alludes to the two players I would like to see replaced

A blip or more serious has been the recent question in regard to Citys’ form\current situation ?

Facts (as Mr Benitez would say):
Out of the League Cup, a string of poor performances.
Hopes hanging by a thread to Champions League progress to the knockout stage.
Looking off the pace when compared to Chelsea for the League title.
Yaya Toure showing next to nothing.
Fernandinho showing very little (and remember we paid £ 30 million for this player)
After a good start (2 games) Mangala looking like a poor Championship player (and we paid £ 32 million for him)
Question – when we spend over £ 30 million on any player should he not be the finished article able to help City compete at the top table of both domestic and European football ?
After a good start Fernando looking like a poor Championship player
Dzeko in the most appalling form and not even scoring goals to at least compensate
Caballero brought in to challenge Hart as apparently he is as good said our Manager i.e. no No. 1 . He has looked no where near as good as Hart.
Sagna brought in a as a good backup for Zabaleta. He has been no better than Richards and his wages are most likely higher and he is some 6 years older.
Navas a hit and miss player.
Kolarov a hit and miss player.
No pace in anything we do.
Fans cannot be blamed last night for a poor atmosphere as the players gave absolutely nothing to cheer on.

So a blip or more serious ?
If we fail to win in the Derby and lose more ground on Chelsea and maybe others in the Premier League, and fail to keep our Champions League hopes alive by beating CSKA, then I think we have to admit this is serious for City, probably for the first time since pre Mancini.

Over the past 3 and a bit seasons we have been able to overcome any poor results quickly i.e.
1) bad loss away at Liverpool 3-0 in 2011 and Tevez injured to put a dent in Champions League spot hopes, overcome by beating Utd in the FA Cup semi and winning the FA Cup and claiming 3rd in the league.
2) Going 8 points behind Utd after defeat to Arsenal away, overcome by winning last 6 games to clinch the Title
3) Having a bad 2012\2013 season under Mancini but at least we won the Charity Shield, finished 2nd in the league, beat Utd at Old Trafford and got to another FA Cup final.
4) Go out of the Champions League to Barcelona and then to Wigan in the FA Cup inside a week, compensated by winning the League Cup shortly before this.
5) Losing at Anfield and seemingly with it the Title, overcome by having a strong end to the season and winning the Title again

This looks like our biggest test yet to do such again. Surely we cannot keep having lightning strike and we end up digging ourselves out of every hole ? If we do not we could end up mimicking Utd and going from 1st to out of the Champions League spots in a season, and due to FFP we will not have £ 150 million to throw at an overhaul of the team.

Maybe our team has reached a peak ?

That is an incredible post mate . Absolutely spot on. Great memory which again shows the immensity of Sunday . It's a defining moment . Having said that I don't think our manager ought to express his feelings about our players' seeming lack of trust in each other as reason for these defeats . He can do that privately but not so public . It can hand opposition a perk for Sunday . That said 2 losses and a Derby ought to bring out real passion . Roll on Sunday . Vinnie to step up .

 

[Deleted member 58678]

Apart from the other issues raised, I don't agree with MP's selection policy for these games. Newcastle had a 17 year old and 18 year old up front, and I have to say they at times made our expensive defenders look second rate.

We could easily have played Pozo and even Brandon Barker from the EDS squad, and they might have given our team the burst of youthful energy that we seem to need at the moment.

Pellers seems reluctant to give young players a go. I understand the pressure to win at all costs, but this must be balanced by encouraging youth.

Dare I say it, I wouldn't mind seeing Guidetti come back after his loan spell. We just need something different to shake the complacency out of some of our players.

I said that last night. There was no reason why Kun and Silva weren't sat at home with their feet up and a few youngsters in their place. Them two and Milner are our only decent performers this season, we won that comp last season, it isn't even part of Soriano's "five trophies in five years" (he only said FA Cup, Premier League and Champions League), the defence of our title and showing progression in the CL is more important than the FL Cup this season, and we have a derby in three days.

We did not need to win last night, it was not a must win game. It would have been nice to progress to the Quarters and it would have been good to see a good performance or at least a bit of effort from the squad players and then, as you say, some youth and exuberance and something new worth paying £15 to see for a nice change. but overall we have much higher priorities right now and we didn't have to win.

As it was Silva got injured, Kun had to come on and he got booked (what if he'd picked up a second booking? I shit myself at one point when he was blown up for a high foot as I'm certain the ref went for his pocket then changed his mind!) and our two best players could both have been lost for the derby, the players that played were a disgrace on the whole (Demichelis was the only one who played well), the effort was appalling and there were no youth players to at least see something of. Why he's so adverse to playing youth players in games like last night I have no idea, baffles me.

The whole night was a shambles.

 

[City1974]

Apart from the other issues raised, I don't agree with MP's selection policy for these games. Newcastle had a 17 year old and 18 year old up front, and I have to say they at times made our expensive defenders look second rate.

We could easily have played Pozo and even Brandon Barker from the EDS squad, and they might have given our team the burst of youthful energy that we seem to need at the moment.

Pellers seems reluctant to give young players a go. I understand the pressure to win at all costs, but this must be balanced by encouraging youth.

Dare I say it, I wouldn't mind seeing Guidetti come back after his loan spell. We just need something different to shake the complacency out of some of our players.

I said that last night. There was no reason why Kun and Silva weren't sat at home with their feet up and a few youngsters in their place. Them two and Milner are our only decent performers this season, we won that comp last season, it isn't even part of Soriano's "five trophies in five years" (he only said FA Cup, Premier League and Champions League), the defence of our title and showing progression in the CL is more important than the FL Cup this season, and we have a derby in three days.

We did not need to win last night, it was not a must win game. It would have been nice to progress to the Quarters and it would have been good to see a good performance or at least a bit of effort from the squad players and then, as you say, some youth and exuberance and something new worth paying £15 to see for a nice change. but overall we have much higher priorities right now and we didn't have to win.

As it was Silva got injured, Kun had to come on and he got booked (what if he'd picked up a second booking? I shit myself at one point when he was blown up for a high foot as I'm certain the ref went for his pocket then changed his mind!) and our two best players could both have been lost for the derby, the players that played were a disgrace on the whole (Demichelis was the only one who played well), the effort was appalling and there were no youth players to at least see something of. Why he's so adverse to playing youth players in games like last night I have no idea, baffles me.

The whole night was a shambles.

All trophies are important. I would like to win the League Cup every year. No point in concentrating only on selected trophies as this increases the jeporady for us to end up with nothing each season. I would rather win the League Cup than nothing, even the Charity Shield rather than winning nothing. I want us to win every trophy. If we fail in the CL group I hope we win the Europa League. Losing is never good as it simply gives teams even more encouragement against us.

The problem is that our squad is much weaker than many think, which is odd with the vast amount we have spent assembling it. Without the likes of Silva, Aguero and Kompany we often look poor.

As for protecting players against injury, players can get injured in training, Aguero even got injured once whilst at home ! There are no guarantees no matter what, sometimes its just down to luck (good or bad)

So we rest players for selected games (then with a weaker lineup those games are lost) and then they come in for the more important games and we may still lose those games also. This never makes sense to me.

Always pick the best players available, making changes only for poor form , injury (that can happen any time during a season) and suspension, forget constant rotation nonsense. Have a great squad of 18 players 11 main players and 7 subs giving solid backup on the bench, there should be no need for 2 main players for every position, simply a no. 1 in each position and a solid backup (the latter of which can even come from what the equivalent of a reserve team is these days).

 

[Deleted member 58678]

We´re in the fifth year of this cycle I believe and cycles do come to an end you know

Is this happening now to us? There are clearly players who think they´ve done it all and don´t have the desire. Time they were shipped out. Do we have the natural replacements for Yaya, Silva and Komps? Lopes would have been nice to throw in last night instead of Dave for eg. Added to this the seeming lack of intensity and pace in our side allied with what now seems a very disjointed system and you have the recipe for turmoil.

Personally I think this lot ought to have another couple of seasons (the majority anyway) left in the locker but now I think it has to be back to basics. Our best defence (Vinny, MDM) and I never thought I´d say this but god I hope Fat Frank is ready for Sunday coz we will need all the experience he can bring to bear and he doesn´t shirk from a battle.
The LB situation needs addressing in Jan as well as striker which alludes to the two players I would like to see replaced

A blip or more serious has been the recent question in regard to Citys’ form\current situation ?

Facts (as Mr Benitez would say):
Out of the League Cup, a string of poor performances.
Hopes hanging by a thread to Champions League progress to the knockout stage.
Looking off the pace when compared to Chelsea for the League title.
Yaya Toure showing next to nothing.
Fernandinho showing very little (and remember we paid £ 30 million for this player)
After a good start (2 games) Mangala looking like a poor Championship player (and we paid £ 32 million for him)
Question – when we spend over £ 30 million on any player should he not be the finished article able to help City compete at the top table of both domestic and European football ?
After a good start Fernando looking like a poor Championship player
Dzeko in the most appalling form and not even scoring goals to at least compensate
Caballero brought in to challenge Hart as apparently he is as good said our Manager i.e. no No. 1 . He has looked no where near as good as Hart.
Sagna brought in a as a good backup for Zabaleta. He has been no better than Richards and his wages are most likely higher and he is some 6 years older.
Navas a hit and miss player.
Kolarov a hit and miss player.
No pace in anything we do.
Fans cannot be blamed last night for a poor atmosphere as the players gave absolutely nothing to cheer on.

So a blip or more serious ?
If we fail to win in the Derby and lose more ground on Chelsea and maybe others in the Premier League, and fail to keep our Champions League hopes alive by beating CSKA, then I think we have to admit this is serious for City, probably for the first time since pre Mancini.

Over the past 3 and a bit seasons we have been able to overcome any poor results quickly i.e.
1) bad loss away at Liverpool 3-0 in 2011 and Tevez injured to put a dent in Champions League spot hopes, overcome by beating Utd in the FA Cup semi and winning the FA Cup and claiming 3rd in the league.
2) Going 8 points behind Utd after defeat to Arsenal away, overcome by winning last 6 games to clinch the Title
3) Having a bad 2012\2013 season under Mancini but at least we won the Charity Shield, finished 2nd in the league, beat Utd at Old Trafford and got to another FA Cup final.
4) Go out of the Champions League to Barcelona and then to Wigan in the FA Cup inside a week, compensated by winning the League Cup shortly before this.
5) Losing at Anfield and seemingly with it the Title, overcome by having a strong end to the season and winning the Title again

This looks like our biggest test yet to do such again. Surely we cannot keep having lightning strike and we end up digging ourselves out of every hole ? If we do not we could end up mimicking Utd and going from 1st to out of the Champions League spots in a season, and due to FFP we will not have £ 150 million to throw at an overhaul of the team.

Maybe our team has reached a peak ?

Some good points there.

I keep saying, and look at your examples, that we put ourselves in the shit and then have to rectify situations when all seems lost. I think that shows huge weaknesses in our attitude and mentality as a group. Yes it's fantastic to see us get certain things right in the end, after we've seemingly fucked up (or it's a case that someone else has fucked up to get our foot back in the door?) but where is the correct champions attitude and mentality from the outset? I don't think we have it.

When the pressure is on us, we crumble. When all seems lost and the pressure is off, we're at our best.

Even in the FA Cup last season, that exact thing happened. At Blackburn we fucked up; a poor Second Division side and we were shite against them, had to take it to a replay (an extra game in a 55+ game season we didn't need) before we got right...next round Watford; average side from the Second Division, had to go 0-2 at home before we bring on Zaba Kompany and Kun to get it right...We lost convincingly to Chelsea in the league at home and then a week later bounced back against them in the FA Cup (where was the right display in the first game though?)...then we finally went out to Second Division Wigan who'd beaten us the year before in the FA Cup final when they were relegated.

If you told that^ to a none football supporter, they wouldn't believe that the team being described was a £350m+ champion side full of international starting players.

And then look at us in Europe. In any game that has really had something riding on it against the best teams in the groups we've faced (so no end of group games where one of either team has rested players or taken it easy, nor any of the lesser sides in the groups) our record is P11 W0 D4 L7. Is that a sign of a team that's won the Premier League two out of the last three years?

Then I wonder, if Maloney had hit the post for Wigan v United or had Gerrard not slipped for Liverpool v Chelsea, would we have won either league title? Was it us winning them or others fucking up? It makes me fucking question a lot of things about our team.

 

[TSGHutchison]

The horrible thought is that if City were managed by Mourinho, we'd have won the league far more easily last year and be ahead this year. So what would City fans rather have? Because I think Pellegrini is showing what I initially thought of him - he is VERY Wenger-esque tactically. However, when his attacking doesn't work then his hung-ho defence gets screwed, and it's happening more often.
Give Mourinho Kompany and Managala and I'm sure they'd be the best ever within a year or two.

I also think that people don't appreciate the fact that if City stop Chelsea from winning ANYTHING this year, then I think Mourinho will go - how can he defend two trophy less seasons for his standard? For Abramovichs standard.

You just feel like Coty should have found these league titles far easier than they have, and you could say that's because of the quality of the Prem but look at Chelsea now. Huge psychological and actual advantage already.

 

[City1974]

We´re in the fifth year of this cycle I believe and cycles do come to an end you know

Is this happening now to us? There are clearly players who think they´ve done it all and don´t have the desire. Time they were shipped out. Do we have the natural replacements for Yaya, Silva and Komps? Lopes would have been nice to throw in last night instead of Dave for eg. Added to this the seeming lack of intensity and pace in our side allied with what now seems a very disjointed system and you have the recipe for turmoil.

Personally I think this lot ought to have another couple of seasons (the majority anyway) left in the locker but now I think it has to be back to basics. Our best defence (Vinny, MDM) and I never thought I´d say this but god I hope Fat Frank is ready for Sunday coz we will need all the experience he can bring to bear and he doesn´t shirk from a battle.
The LB situation needs addressing in Jan as well as striker which alludes to the two players I would like to see replaced

A blip or more serious has been the recent question in regard to Citys’ form\current situation ?

Facts (as Mr Benitez would say):
Out of the League Cup, a string of poor performances.
Hopes hanging by a thread to Champions League progress to the knockout stage.
Looking off the pace when compared to Chelsea for the League title.
Yaya Toure showing next to nothing.
Fernandinho showing very little (and remember we paid £ 30 million for this player)
After a good start (2 games) Mangala looking like a poor Championship player (and we paid £ 32 million for him)
Question – when we spend over £ 30 million on any player should he not be the finished article able to help City compete at the top table of both domestic and European football ?
After a good start Fernando looking like a poor Championship player
Dzeko in the most appalling form and not even scoring goals to at least compensate
Caballero brought in to challenge Hart as apparently he is as good said our Manager i.e. no No. 1 . He has looked no where near as good as Hart.
Sagna brought in a as a good backup for Zabaleta. He has been no better than Richards and his wages are most likely higher and he is some 6 years older.
Navas a hit and miss player.
Kolarov a hit and miss player.
No pace in anything we do.
Fans cannot be blamed last night for a poor atmosphere as the players gave absolutely nothing to cheer on.

So a blip or more serious ?
If we fail to win in the Derby and lose more ground on Chelsea and maybe others in the Premier League, and fail to keep our Champions League hopes alive by beating CSKA, then I think we have to admit this is serious for City, probably for the first time since pre Mancini.

Over the past 3 and a bit seasons we have been able to overcome any poor results quickly i.e.
1) bad loss away at Liverpool 3-0 in 2011 and Tevez injured to put a dent in Champions League spot hopes, overcome by beating Utd in the FA Cup semi and winning the FA Cup and claiming 3rd in the league.
2) Going 8 points behind Utd after defeat to Arsenal away, overcome by winning last 6 games to clinch the Title
3) Having a bad 2012\2013 season under Mancini but at least we won the Charity Shield, finished 2nd in the league, beat Utd at Old Trafford and got to another FA Cup final.
4) Go out of the Champions League to Barcelona and then to Wigan in the FA Cup inside a week, compensated by winning the League Cup shortly before this.
5) Losing at Anfield and seemingly with it the Title, overcome by having a strong end to the season and winning the Title again

This looks like our biggest test yet to do such again. Surely we cannot keep having lightning strike and we end up digging ourselves out of every hole ? If we do not we could end up mimicking Utd and going from 1st to out of the Champions League spots in a season, and due to FFP we will not have £ 150 million to throw at an overhaul of the team.

Maybe our team has reached a peak ?

Some good points there.

I keep saying, and look at your examples, that we put ourselves in the shit and then have to rectify situations when all seems lost. I think that shows huge weaknesses in our attitude and mentality as a group. Yes it's fantastic to see us get certain things right in the end, after we've seemingly fucked up (or it's a case that someone else has fucked up to get our foot back in the door?) but where is the correct champions attitude and mentality from the outset? I don't think we have it.

When the pressure is on us, we crumble. When all seems lost and the pressure is off, we're at our best.

Even in the FA Cup last season, that exact thing happened. At Blackburn we fucked up; a poor Second Division side and we were shite against them, had to take it to a replay (an extra game in a 55+ game season we didn't need) before we got right...next round Watford; average side from the Second Division, had to go 0-2 at home before we bring on Zaba Kompany and Kun to get it right...We lost convincingly to Chelsea in the league at home and then a week later bounced back against them in the FA Cup (where was the right display in the first game though?)...then we finally went out to Second Division Wigan who'd beaten us the year before in the FA Cup final when they were relegated.

If you told that^ to a none football supporter, they wouldn't believe that the team being described was a £350m+ champion side full of international starting players.

And then look at us in Europe. In any game that has really had something riding on it against the best teams in the groups we've faced (so no end of group games where one of either team has rested players or taken it easy, nor any of the lesser sides in the groups) our record is P11 W0 D4 L7. Is that a sign of a team that's won the Premier League two out of the last three years?

Then I wonder, if Maloney had hit the post for Wigan v United or had Gerrard not slipped for Liverpool v Chelsea, would we have won either league title? Was it us winning them or others fucking up? It makes me fucking question a lot of things about our team.

This is why I do not think we will get out of this on this occasion (even if we win the next 2 games). Surely we cannot have the good fortune for the law of averages to always be overlooked and things to be weighted in our favour to often. The great disappointment is that we have seemed to stall and reached a point beyond which we cannot improve and yet we have spent vast amounts of money on this team now and are paying very high wages to players who cannot take us up one more level, and thus at present you cannot see us becoming like Utd have been, and winning Title after Title and game after game, and winning the Champions League at least once in the next 5-10 years.

We just look much more vulnerable than we all hoped for by now and most alarmingly look like we may be heading slightly downwards and letting a few other teams come past us.

This could be a long season.

 

[BlueRockape]

If last night was anything to go by, 200mill on the EDS center what a waste of money not one bit of youth on show fukin disgrace