Clown car defending

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

Is Pellers any better at defensive coaching than Martinez? That's the question.

At something like £80M, they really shouldn't need much coaching in the basics of defending.

 

[hertsblue]

I think its a combination of poor buys, poor tactics and poor training/organisation.
We have a state of the art training facility but every week it looks like we do not do anything in training bar running round traffic cones. Its hard to think of 1 player that has improved in the last few years

 

[Scaring Europe to Death]

There's admittedly probably a tendency for it not to register when opposition defenders fuck up, but is there any other team, not just in the Premier League but in Europe, whose back 4 attempts to commit ritual suicide with such astonishing regularity as ours?
I'm not talking about being exposed by a lack of midfield cover or making an error under pressure or repeat failures of an offside trap, but absolute complacent fucktard pieces of defending (particularly relating to fannying around instead of clearing the ball) that leave you purple faced in rage and bewilderment, and unable to comprehend that these are some of the highest paid professional footballers in the world we're talking about.
Whatever, sometimes we've paid the ultimate price and other times we've gotten away with it, but I am at a loss to explain the cause. Is it coaching, is it lack of leadership, is it arrogance, is it a lackadaisical approach to defending in general, are they just fucking stupid?
Off the top of my head then I came up with this lot (mostly from recent weeks), and I appreciate that there were probably a load more at the start of the season I've forgotten about.......

Norwich (h) - Hart drops the ball on his own goal line under no pressure from anyone and Jerome taps in to an empty net.
Liverpool (h) - 1. Mangala gets his feet in a tangle and backheels the ball past Joe Hart for an own goal.
2. Mangala and Dimichelis get in each other's way, Firmino takes advantage and tees up Coutinho for a goal.
Juventus (a) - Otamendi falls down under minimal contact hoping for a cheap free kick and Mandzukic scores.
Everton (a) - 1. Otamendi as last man has a 5 yard start over Barkley, but dithers, allows himself to get knocked off the ball and Hart has to make a last ditch save.
2. In a packed penalty area, Mangala collects the ball on the edge of the 6 yard and instead of clearing his lines, attempts an absolute hospital pass to a City player on the edge of the box, which pass is promptly intercepted and results in a shot at goal.
West Ham (a) - A hopeful West Ham throw travels fully 40 yards into our 6 yard box with only 1 West Ham player even in our half, Otamendi has all day to deal with it, but falls asleep and allows that one player to run round behind him and poke it past Hart.
Everton (h) - Otamendi races out of position, dives in needlessly on Barkley, gets nowhere near the ball and the Everton player runs on to score.
Sunderland (a) - under no pressure from anyone Dimichelis plays a needless and suicidal short pass on the edge of our box straight to a Sunderland player, who has a free run on goal that Hart manages to block.
Rags (h) - Dimichelis plays a woefully underhit back pass whilst looking in the opposite direction, which sees Joe Hart depart on a stretcher.
PSG (a) - Hart plays an utterly pointless goal kick to Fernando, who has his back to the opposition and doesn't realise Ibrahimovic is coming up behind, and the City midfielder duly turns straight into him and the ball cannons into the empty net.
Newcastle (a) - 1. under no pressure Kompany tries a needless dribble out of defence, only to get caught in possession by Sissoko, who runs clean through on goal only for Hart to save the day.
2. In the 90th minute, Kolarov has all day to clear the ball, but dithers and allows Wijnaldum to race through on Hart, who makes another point blank save.
Southampton (a) - 1. Otamendi falls asleep and allows a player 3 yards behind him to beat him to the ball and toe end it past Hart.
2. Kolarov has all day to clear, but dithers and then whacks the ball straight into the back of a Southampton player. The ball duly loops back over Kolarov's head and sets Long free.
3. Zabaleta, Otamendi and Kolarov all have the opportunity under pressure by the deadball line, to whack the ball out for throw ins. All opt to try and dribble or shield the ball out of play, all get robbed of possession with Southampton players then running the ball back into our near empty penalty area.

Not to mention the nagging feeling that our youth team are continually reenacting the move that led to Hart’s injury against United.

From a standing start, our goalkeeper distributes the ball at 1mph to a full back who doesn’t want the ball. Panic sets in, and guess what?

I stood behind Vieira at the Youth Cup Final last year, and he never reacted once, despite the Chelsea players continually regaining possession.

He just shouted “keep playing..keep playing”

Now Vieira understands more about football than any of us, so presumably it’s all part of a wider, expansive coaching masterplan. Otherwise, we seem to be a supply line for mid table La Liga outfits, who aren’t used to Premier League physicality.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Don't you believe it!
It could actually get worse till Pep gets a grip of the Premier League.
Any new defensive players that are brought in from overseas will take a season to adjust to the Premier League. They just won't get the time on the ball that they're used to if they come from abroad.
Then there are tactics.
It stands to reason that when playing against a team of whippets you adopt a deeper defensive line - not stubborn Pellers of course - but I'm not sure Pep won't try the same trick (which is doomed to failure BTW)...
When your fullback is forward the CD has to cover the fullback but people have to get back and fill in behind him. We have been so slow at this this season it is untrue...
Sweeping keepers in the Premier League is another brain fart that won't work either. They will rapidly find that without team movement there are no passing options so they have to hoof it long...
I'm expecting a disaster to start with but I expect it will improve...

In reality, Peps best option is to start with a defensively tight formation and when proved to be solid to gradually expand on it. Let's see how good Pep actually is - if he adopts this option I admit I will be impressed.

Pep's game usually involved getting superior numbers in every area of the pitch at the relevant time. When it goes wrong, it leaves the back 2 or 3 having to clean up, but tgat happens 30 times in a typical Pellegrini game usually with the oppo outnumbering us. I xan't see how it can actually be worse.

It could possibly be 'as bad' at times whilst the players are learning but worse ?

 

[Neville Kneville]

Not to mention the nagging feeling that our youth team are continually reenacting the move that led to Hart’s injury against United.

From a standing start, our goalkeeper distributes the ball at 1mph to a full back who doesn’t want the ball. Panic sets in, and guess what?

I stood behind Vieira at the Youth Cup Final last year, and he never reacted once, despite the Chelsea players continually regaining possession.

He just shouted “keep playing..keep playing”

Now Vieira understands more about football than any of us, so presumably it’s all part of a wider, expansive coaching masterplan. Otherwise, we seem to be a supply line for mid table La Liga outfits, who aren’t used to Premier League physicality.

It's about teaching the players to do it. The reaction of Danny Mills etc would be to shout at them, hence when Barca need a player, they rarely come to England.

 

[OB1]

OB1 will be along shortly with some stats about how good we are defensively! lol

You take the piss but it's almost ironic that my esteemed friend was slating Pellegrini on one thread and starting a thread here that points out the difficulties he faces with this set of players: it doesn't matter who he picks or how much he has drilled them - or hasn't - they keep fucking up.

We have conceded far too many goals this season, particularly by allowing teams to easily rack up scores like yesterday's four but I think it is because the team has made too many costly errors that have undermined a lot of good work.

 

[bluetev]

There's admittedly probably a tendency for it not to register when opposition defenders fuck up, but is there any other team, not just in the Premier League but in Europe, whose back 4 attempts to commit ritual suicide with such astonishing regularity as ours?
I'm not talking about being exposed by a lack of midfield cover or making an error under pressure or repeat failures of an offside trap, but absolute complacent fucktard pieces of defending (particularly relating to fannying around instead of clearing the ball) that leave you purple faced in rage and bewilderment, and unable to comprehend that these are some of the highest paid professional footballers in the world we're talking about.
Whatever, sometimes we've paid the ultimate price and other times we've gotten away with it, but I am at a loss to explain the cause. Is it coaching, is it lack of leadership, is it arrogance, is it a lackadaisical approach to defending in general, are they just fucking stupid?
Off the top of my head then I came up with this lot (mostly from recent weeks), and I appreciate that there were probably a load more at the start of the season I've forgotten about.......

Norwich (h) - Hart drops the ball on his own goal line under no pressure from anyone and Jerome taps in to an empty net.
Liverpool (h) - 1. Mangala gets his feet in a tangle and backheels the ball past Joe Hart for an own goal.
2. Mangala and Dimichelis get in each other's way, Firmino takes advantage and tees up Coutinho for a goal.
Juventus (a) - Otamendi falls down under minimal contact hoping for a cheap free kick and Mandzukic scores.
Everton (a) - 1. Otamendi as last man has a 5 yard start over Barkley, but dithers, allows himself to get knocked off the ball and Hart has to make a last ditch save.
2. In a packed penalty area, Mangala collects the ball on the edge of the 6 yard and instead of clearing his lines, attempts an absolute hospital pass to a City player on the edge of the box, which pass is promptly intercepted and results in a shot at goal.
West Ham (a) - A hopeful West Ham throw travels fully 40 yards into our 6 yard box with only 1 West Ham player even in our half, Otamendi has all day to deal with it, but falls asleep and allows that one player to run round behind him and poke it past Hart.
Everton (h) - Otamendi races out of position, dives in needlessly on Barkley, gets nowhere near the ball and the Everton player runs on to score.
Sunderland (a) - under no pressure from anyone Dimichelis plays a needless and suicidal short pass on the edge of our box straight to a Sunderland player, who has a free run on goal that Hart manages to block.
Rags (h) - Dimichelis plays a woefully underhit back pass whilst looking in the opposite direction, which sees Joe Hart depart on a stretcher.
PSG (a) - Hart plays an utterly pointless goal kick to Fernando, who has his back to the opposition and doesn't realise Ibrahimovic is coming up behind, and the City midfielder duly turns straight into him and the ball cannons into the empty net.
Newcastle (a) - 1. under no pressure Kompany tries a needless dribble out of defence, only to get caught in possession by Sissoko, who runs clean through on goal only for Hart to save the day.
2. In the 90th minute, Kolarov has all day to clear the ball, but dithers and allows Wijnaldum to race through on Hart, who makes another point blank save.
Southampton (a) - 1. Otamendi falls asleep and allows a player 3 yards behind him to beat him to the ball and toe end it past Hart.
2. Kolarov has all day to clear, but dithers and then whacks the ball straight into the back of a Southampton player. The ball duly loops back over Kolarov's head and sets Long free.
3. Zabaleta, Otamendi and Kolarov all have the opportunity under pressure by the deadball line, to whack the ball out for throw ins. All opt to try and dribble or shield the ball out of play, all get robbed of possession with Southampton players then running the ball back into our near empty penalty area.

Basically the team and those highly experienced pros have demonstrated they can only work under a hard taskmaster such as mancini (or pep) who would kick their are for sloppy play.

 

[BlueAnorak]

Pep's game usually involved getting superior numbers in every area of the pitch at the relevant time. When it goes wrong, it leaves the back 2 or 3 having to clean up, but tgat happens 30 times in a typical Pellegrini game usually with the oppo outnumbering us. I xan't see how it can actually be worse.

It could possibly be 'as bad' at times whilst the players are learning but worse ?

Why not? No one has actually really tried his tactics in the Premier League. Klopp is close but it's been quite a rough ride for them (except when they play us). I think the close to zero time on the ball in a dangerous position before tackles come in, may actually come as a shock to Pep

 

[Neville Kneville]

Why not? No one has actually really tried his tactics in the Premier League. Klopp is close but it's been quite a rough ride for them (except when they play us). I think the close to zero time on the ball in a dangerous position before tackles come in, may actually come as a shock to Pep

It won't be a shock. He knows how it works & has played against plenty of teams who harrass & had each kind of result against it, in luding a hammering, so he knows what's needed. It's just that he has to program a group of players & the goalkeeper, to do it in the space of two weeks, which is close to impossible imo, unless he uses a load of the kids (who are being taught to do it already) & a bunch of new signings, whilst the first team are away & starts the season with a new team.

I imagine it will take a season to get close to where Pep wants but we should still be good enough to compete.

 

[Scaring Europe to Death]

It's about teaching the players to do it. The reaction of Danny Mills etc would be to shout at them, hence when Barca need a player, they rarely come to England.

I'm not disputing that mate, but our youth team defenders have been doing it for three years now, and are still nowhere near the first team.
Denayer will be 21 in June, but I'd love to know how he feels when he sees Otamendi making those mistakes, outlined by the OP.
In an ideal world, Guardiola will see the potential of Denayer, and along with Iheanacho, our Academy progress will start to take shape.
In the meantime, our current defensive strategy is a total shambles.

 

[manimanc]

Is Pellers any better at defensive coaching than Martinez? That's the question.

Another question is are you a wum? Fishing at its worst, great try though pal.

 

[malg]

Apparently we have the 4th best defence in the country, so you are all imagining it.

That's the thing about stats, you can cover up all manner of shite, or use it to 'prove' nonsense. I know what I watch, and by heavens we are very, very fragile at the back.

I fucking hate those optima stats that get displayed on the second tier. People have started to use that nonsense as absolute proof of things now. I'm a fan of Mangala, but I don't think he's our best on the ball, however on the fucking optima stats, he was our most accurate passer of the ball in the first half v Stoke (96%). Just nonsense.

 

[MSM]

Is Pellers any better at defensive coaching than Martinez? That's the question.

Two peas from the same pod mate.
They both inherited teams with rock solid defences and within two seasons the respective defence is utterly shambolic.
From the highly organised, well drilled, tactically coached defence we had with Mancini to the Keystone Cops operation we have now is nothing short of criminal
and we have also spent Gods knows how much as well. If it wasn't so painful to watch it would actually be funny. Pellegrini and the DoF together have some very serious questions to answer.
The exact same with Martinez. He got lucky with the defence and formation that Moyes had built and has totally destroyed it in less than two seasons.

 

[Neville Kneville]

I'm not disputing that mate, but our youth team defenders have been doing it for three years now, and are still nowhere near the first team.
Denayer will be 21 in June, but I'd love to know how he feels when he sees Otamendi making those mistakes, outlined by the OP.
In an ideal world, Guardiola will see the potential of Denayer, and along with Iheanacho, our Academy progress will start to take shape.
In the meantime, our current defensive strategy is a total shambles.

Apparently it's all Txiki's fault, forcing Pellegrini to loan out Denayer & use Demichelis instead & to buy Otamendi.

I think only Denayer & Maffeo would have been realistic options as defenders this season tbf to Manuel (although Shay Facey would certainly make a better fist of defending v Southampton than Kolarov did, even out of position) but in other positions I think we have a shitload of pkayers we could have used over the past year. Even if they didn't stay at the club.

I recon City's best 5 or 6 players with 5 or 6 of the best kids, would fucking hammer the side we put out yesterday minus Fernandinho & Kelechi.

 

[Exeter Blue I am here]

You take the piss but it's almost ironic that my esteemed friend was slating Pellegrini on one thread and starting a thread here that points out the difficulties he faces with this set of players: it doesn't matter who he picks or how much he has drilled them - or hasn't - they keep fucking up.

We have conceded far too many goals this season, particularly by allowing teams to easily rack up scores like yesterday's four but I think it is because the team has made too many costly errors that have undermined a lot of good work.

They are though his set of players and his job is to coach them. They are in my view equally culpable, but I am loathe to believe that this squad would defend so badly so often under any other manager in the PL

 

[MSM]

They are though his set of players and his job is to coach them. They are in my view equally culpable, but I am loathe to believe that this squad would defend so badly so often under any other manager in the PL

In that case the only conclusion to reach is that the players are simply not good enough.
Therefore both the DoF and the Manager (who we assume are responsible for recruiting them) have screwed up?

 

[Neville Kneville]

That's the thing about stats, you can cover up all manner of shite, or use it to 'prove' nonsense. I know what I watch, and by heavens we are very, very fragile at the back.

I fucking hate those optima stats that get displayed on the second tier. People have started to use that nonsense as absolute proof of things now. I'm a fan of Mangala, but I don't think he's our best on the ball, however on the fucking optima stats, he was our most accurate passer of the ball in the first half v Stoke (96%). Just nonsense.

Otamendi is a prime example. He has a good leap on him so wins loads of headers, probably as many or more than Kompany & Lescott used to do. But they are enormous, rock hard, brick shithouses & he's just a middleweight with tattoos & a beard. So as we saw with Van Dijk, when he comes up against a proper big monster he can't even get close half the time. Add to that the number of times he fails to pick a player up. Those things aren't in the stats as half the time he doesn't even get close enough to constitute a challenge.

When he wins 5 tackles then goes missing for the 6th or sits on his arse or charges to the halfway line & the oppo score. The stats show he's won 75% of tackles.

He can be directly responsible for 3 goals but if there isn't a direct stat for it, he's the best player on the pitch.

 

[Le Havre Oswald]

I was watching Otamendi in particular last week, and he is the one 'marshalling' - he checks where his defenders are, he'll shout for the line to move up etc etc.

Despite this, he is the one who routinely leaves his line and goes and commits to a flying tackle on the half way line.

The whole backline is just pretty brainless without Vinny.

He reminds me of the Monk from mean machine. Complete mad bastard.

 

[Le Havre Oswald]

excellent post John. I can't wait to start next season. I bet mancini is watching from afar and thinking wtf.

Yeah, I'm counting the days until the season is over. Can't wait until that clown leaves.

 

[OB1]

They are though his set of players and his job is to coach them. They are in my view equally culpable, but I am loathe to believe that this squad would defend so badly so often under any other manager in the PL

Oh I think they would under some. I am quite certain Pellegrini could produce better defensive stats if he chose to sacrifice more attacking intent - he obviously thinks so because he has said as much on numerous occasions. I think we would both agree that he should have done that more frequently and that he has not got the balance right often enough.

You know I'm not exonerating Pellegrini from his failings or poor decisions but much as I would expect Pep to get more out of this bunch, I think he needs several changes making to the squad to help avoid some of the crap we see. What I do expect of Pep compared to Pellegrini is better movement particularly in respect of players being closer together and moving in unison.