I agree it's a different culture. It's safer, but there aren't less. They're not gonna go away. Just either less getting caught or less given the opportunity to act on it, thankfully.
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Club statement regarding Barry Bennell's conviction
- Thread starter petrusha
- Start date
I agree it's a different culture. It's safer, but there aren't less. They're not gonna go away. Just either less getting caught or less given the opportunity to act on it, thankfully.
tolmie's hairdoo
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CRB and DBS checks didnt exist nor did laws stopping hitting kids etc.
The 70's were definitely not the same as today.....yeah pedos are all over and we all need to grass them up or disclose any information.
In the 70's this just didnt happen
Just as it seems prevalent that women were getting knocked about by husbands, but people turned the other cheek, as also still happens today.
lancs blue
Well-Known Member
The problem for me is that for around 4 years after Steve Fleet opposed Bennell's full time appointment City still retained their connection with his junior teams and allowed Bennell access to club premises before finally severing the link in 1984, and Bennell subsequently joined Crewe as a full-time employee in 1985. Crewe apparently asked City why they had cut their links with Bennell and were told it was because he'd been touting tickets given to him as complimentaries for use by his junior teams. If that was the real reason then fair enough but if the reason had anything to do with continuing rumours about his behaviour then I think City really should have told Crewe about that.By that time, City no longer had any links with him. As is well attested, he was involved in the 1970s in an amateur feeder club (Whitehill) i.e. we had an arrangement to take on their most promising kids, and he clearly played that link strongly to dazzle and entice his victims.
He applied for a scouting job at City, and was turned down so went to Crewe instead. It seems that the reason he was turned down was as a result of Steve Fleet (our youth team manager?) expressing his strong intuitive feelings that he was "dodgy". There was no evidence , so it seems somewhat unfair to blame anyone else at the club - but thank you very much STEVE FLEET for being so insistent and forthright in expressing your instinctive doubts, you clearly saved City from employing this monster.
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
My dad told me he used to go to some 'club' in Hulme in the late 60s and Saville would be in there after a recording of Top of the Pops.
Saville had a mate who ran it called Ray 'Ugly' Terrett. My dad recalled even then as a young man how young girls were treated and how many were wary.
I know Terrett later got done and it was pretty chilling to watch a documentary a couple years aback about a record shop he later ran in Sale on Marsland Road (now opposite Emilios) .
All the girls who came forward remembered they used to write their names and messages on the walls, so the police stripped the wallpaper and there they all were, which helped convict him.
I live close to that location and it just goes to show that you may never be too far away from these evil monsters.
I was introduced to Terrett once, as he was working for Piccadilly radio & had a pint with him, didn't know he had connections with Saville etc.
It was probably then that I was warned by others about stories relating to Saville, which I thought 'nah he's a weird **** but he gets awards off the Queen & everything, they'd know & keep him at arms length'.
mancityvstoke
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yeah...disgusting .....especially in front of kids like I had to witness when my lovely step Dad strangled my Mum and held a bread knife at her throat.Just as it seems prevalent that women were getting knocked about by husbands, but people turned the other cheek, as also still happens today.
mancityvstoke
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Teret was a ****......him and his doormenI was introduced to Terrett once, as he was working for Piccadilly radio & had a pint with him, didn't know he had connections with Saville etc.
It was probably then that I was warned by others about stories relating to Saville, which I thought 'nah he's a weird **** but he gets awards off the Queen & everything, they'd know & keep him at arms length'.
tolmie's hairdoo
Well-Known Member
I was introduced to Terrett once, as he was working for Piccadilly radio & had a pint with him, didn't know he had connections with Saville etc.
It was probably then that I was warned by others about stories relating to Saville, which I thought 'nah he's a weird **** but he gets awards off the Queen & everything, they'd know & keep him at arms length'.
Instead of giving him the keys to homes and hospitals.
You're correct, though, Saville regularly bragged he was protected and had friends in the IRA.
Neville Kneville
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This is a wider point, but relatively on topic. What gets me is how many seem to think that it's era related - like there was just loads in the 70s with the beeb etc and it was a thing then and it's obviously not now. Like it was just a culture. Is it fuck. Paedophiles are absolutely everywhere in every form of life sadly. And they always will be whether we like it or not. I think there's more people with these urges than we realise, but most, thank god, have the decency not to act on them. The only difference is that the 70s etc was such a long time ago that those around to cover it up aren't really there anymore so it all comes out, hence why people just think that that was an era when there was loads of them.
I guarantee that in 20 years down the line there will be stuff out about people around today sadly and people will just think 'god the 70s and the 2000s were bad, but now is probably fine'. I don't think we know how to deal with it. It's just pushed underground and left unregulated as it's horrific and terrifying, but it isn't gonna go away. People don't *choose* to be this way. Their heads are messed up. So many awful things could be prevented in a society where these people could speak to a counsellor in confidence and get help before anything happened, but of course that could never happen as they'd be lynched as our culture would leak their identities and they'd be killed for admitting something that they cant help but think. I am not in anyway defending them, at all. It's horrific and one of the scariest things we can think of. And some are just fucked up monsters, Bennell for example, but all the revelations point towards a pretty shocking underground culture that we've barely scratched the surface of I reckon. A huge societal change needs to happen. Preventive and not reactive. It won't though, cos we've not got the fucking balls as a species to confront things like this.
You are right of course, but at least a big investigation, (which I hope to christ this is going to become) at least makes it more difficult for people to get away with it, which is better than nothing, & back then, it was pretty much nothing.
tolmie's hairdoo
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yeah...disgusting .....especially in front of kids like I had to witness when my lovely step Dad strangled my Mum and held a bread knife at her throat.
I'm very sorry to hear that mate, nobody should be subjected to or see anything like that.
I hope one day you were able to redress it.
Hart of the Matter
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Can we get over the issue of how the media are covering this please. Rochdale and Rotherham were not the only places child sexual exploitation was happenning on a grand scale. The media latch on to this to provide a hook or a short cut. We are that in this case. It is not part of a wider ant City agenda. We have to suck it up. If it means that others are outed and kids are safer going forward it is a small price to pay. The issue here is not our PR it is the victims.
Neville Kneville
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Instead of giving him the keys to homes and hospitals.
You're correct, though, Saville regularly bragged he was protected and had friends in the IRA.
I was told he was a proper nasty piece of work, outside from the recent revelations.
mancityvstoke
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I could write a book......nightmare childhoodI'm very sorry to hear that mate, nobody should be subjected to or see anything like that.
I hope one day you were able to redress it.
I keep away as I don't fancy life in prison
I knew a few people from the world of 60s 70s gangsterland & they knew all about Saville, who was himself not short of aquaintences, from that particular fraternity, & when they told me about him, guess what ? I thought they were winding me up. I believed some of the equally horrendous but non paedophile stories they told me about him, but not the bit about the kids, I thought they were making that up. So I've actually had the same reaction of disbelief at the time.
Obviously that changed when I thought about it, but stil, I can see how these fuckers can sneak under the radar. Now of course you realise how many there are, clergy, royalty, politicians, & of course the arts & sport.
Didn't Saville manage the Ritz nightclub in Manchester at one point? He was often protected because of his charity work which raised a lot of money so those at the top.turned a blind eye.
I remember him on that Jim'll fix it programme one Saturday. There was a group of boy scouts on it and his behaviour towards them was odd, the way he spoke to them and acted. I.mentioned it to my mother and she agreed he came across as strange. The next day Suzie Mathess the Piccadilly DJ asked if anyone watched the Jim'll fix it show the night before and did they think his behaviour was very odd. She said a few more words then said, "Anyway I think the less said about that the better!" and that was that.
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
Didn't Saville manage the Ritz nightclub in Manchester at one point? He was often protected because of his charity work which raised a lot of money so those at the top.turned a blind eye.
I remember him on that Jim'll fix it programme one Saturday. There was a group of boy scouts on it and his behaviour towards them was odd, the way he spoke to them and acted. I.mentioned it to my mother and she agreed he came across as strange. The next day Suzie Mathess the Piccadilly DJ asked if anyone watched the Jim'll fix it show the night before and did they think his behaviour was very odd. She said a few more words then said, "Anyway I think the less said about that the better!" and that was that.
That phrase sums up perfectly, how it works " The less said about that, the better".
I think that has been the reaction of so many people over the years & is how they get away with it.
We prefer to belive it's not true & bury our heads in the sand. But unfortunately, it is & it has to be dealt with, wherever it leads.
west didsblue
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It was the Plaza on Oxford Street, couple of doors down from the Odeon.Didn't Saville manage the Ritz nightclub in Manchester at one point? He was often protected because of his charity work which raised a lot of money so those at the top.turned a blind eye.
I remember him on that Jim'll fix it programme one Saturday. There was a group of boy scouts on it and his behaviour towards them was odd, the way he spoke to them and acted. I.mentioned it to my mother and she agreed he came across as strange. The next day Suzie Mathess the Piccadilly DJ asked if anyone watched the Jim'll fix it show the night before and did they think his behaviour was very odd. She said a few more words then said, "Anyway I think the less said about that the better!" and that was that.
Prestwich_Blue
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This is a wider point, but relatively on topic. What gets me is how many seem to think that it's era related - like there was just loads in the 70s with the beeb etc and it was a thing then and it's obviously not now. Like it was just a culture. Is it fuck. Paedophiles are absolutely everywhere in every form of life sadly. And they always will be whether we like it or not. I think there's more people with these urges than we realise, but most, thank god, have the decency not to act on them. The only difference is that the 70s etc was such a long time ago that those around to cover it up aren't really there anymore so it all comes out, hence why people just think that that was an era when there was loads of them.
Of course it's not just a phenomenon of the 70's. But life was very different back in those days. Teachers were allowed to hit and use straps and canes on their pupils. There was no concept of ‘child protection’. I vividly remember my old primary school head shouting at one lad while we were all lined up in the playground for something he’d done and saying “You can barely write your own name!” Most nowadays would describe him as a sadistic bully (although he was fine with me).
When I went to grammar school there was a teacher there who was regarded as a little strange and who allegedly used to invite boys round to his house. I don’t know whether that was true or not. He never taught me thank goodness but we all talked about it. Other staff must have known of the stories but he stayed at the school for a while and nothing has ever come to light since, as far as I know. A teacher there was more recently dismissed for a physical assault on a boy that wouldn't have raised an eyebrow back in the 70's.
In the late 70's I was a young scout leader in the local troop and there was one leader who seemed to have developed a relationship with a boy who would today probably be described as vulnerable, with a troubled home background. Scouts gave him some of the stability & support he didn't get at home. I wasn't involved in them but was aware of discussions among the other adult leaders about this and their concerns. One was a police officer so you'd assume that any serious concerned might have been investigated but as the lad was over 16 there was possibly little they could do. The leader was asked to leave iirc and I think the young lad went with him. There was no apparent policy or process around child protection but the other leaders did what they thought was right.
Years later (early 90's I think) I returned to scout leadership and the first training course I went on was centred on child protection and ensuring that you were never in a position where you were alone with a child. I also had to have a police check (and one against the Scout Association's own database). I seem to recall it was presented more as protecting yourself (against false allegations) rather than protecting the child, which maybe was the wrong approach but the effect was the same and it was clear things had moved on.
The difference between then and now is that it was easier to gain access to networks like boys' clubs, scout groups, football clubs, and carry out abuse whereas it should be much more difficult now, with the right protections and procedures in place.
The problem for me is that for around 4 years after Steve Fleet opposed Bennell's full time appointment City still retained their connection with his junior teams and allowed Bennell access to club premises before finally severing the link in 1984, and Bennell subsequently joined Crewe as a full-time employee in 1985. Crewe apparently asked City why they had cut their links with Bennell and were told it was because he'd been touting tickets given to him as complimentaries for use by his junior teams. If that was the real reason then fair enough but if the reason had anything to do with continuing rumours about his behaviour then I think City really should have told Crewe about that.
You're absolutely right, the club should have told Crewe if that was the reason but I very much doubt any other club, in City's position at that time, would have done differently. That doesn't make it right but it would have been the norm for the time. As horrible as it is, it is hard to imagine that this is confined to a small number of people at a small number of clubs. There has to be a thorough investigation and there has to be transparency, hopefully the legalities surrounding such horrific acts won't mean clubs continue to close ranks because, if there is anything positive to come from this, it has to be better understanding, more commitment and better practices to prevent any further abuse.
lancs blue
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Oh yes, I'm sure it was the norm at the time but even so the word could have been put about re Bennell on a "between you and me..." basis.You're absolutely right, the club should have told Crewe if that was the reason but I very much doubt any other club, in City's position at that time, would have done differently. That doesn't make it right but it would have been the norm for the time. As horrible as it is, it is hard to imagine that this is confined to a small number of people at a small number of clubs. There has to be a thorough investigation and there has to be transparency, hopefully the legalities surrounding such horrific acts won't mean clubs continue to close ranks because, if there is anything positive to come from this, it has to be better understanding, more commitment and better practices to prevent any further abuse.
There will be plenty more clubs involved in this scandal but as police investigations and prosecutions are ongoing at the moment the media cannot report on them, only on cases that have concluded like Bennell's.
That phrase sums up perfectly, how it works " The less said about that, the better".
I think that has been the reaction of so many people over the years & is how they get away with it.
We prefer to belive it's not true & bury our heads in the sand. But unfortunately, it is & it has to be dealt with, wherever it leads.
This is the problem. I was just a teenager myself but my gut feeling watching that show told me something wasn't right about him. It was chilling his whole demeanor and attitude. Suzie Mathers felt the same. If I rang the police and said that I would have been laughed at and probably told to go away and be careful with the slander law. Many kids did raise concerns and complain but were threatened or ignored. As twosips rightly said these people are everywhere and often connected. The very person people complain to could be part of the conspiracy. Unfortunately it will never end but more are getting exposed and caught now.
uwe rosler 28
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Oh yes, I'm sure it was the norm at the time but even so the word could have been put about re Bennell on a "between you and me..." basis.
There will be plenty more clubs involved in this scandal but as police investigations and prosecutions are ongoing at the moment the media cannot report on them, only on cases that have concluded like Bennell's.
If we would of voiced our concerns to Crewe and bennell found out do u think we would of been liable to slander and as not having full proof evidence? I know the same can be said for the touting of tickets but it's hardly in comparison to the other crime. I really can't see any other reason for city not telling Crewe?