Counterattacking, tempo and pace (Champions League)

Exeter Blue I am here

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We've been in the Champions League for 4 seasons now, and yet last night looked every bit as naïve and vulnerable as we did on our debut against Napoli in 2011.

Despite having been the best side in England over the course of those 4 seasons in terms of points accumulated and trophies won, our record against the most well known teams we have faced in Europe is little short of dire. In games against Munich, Madrid, Dortmund, Ajax, Napoli, Barcelona and Roma, we have mustered 2 wins, 5 draws and 9 defeats, and one of the wins was a dead rubber against a Munich 'B' team, and in one of the draws (Dortmund) we were outclassed from start to finish. And not once during the course of any of those fixtures have I felt confident that we would win, nor even that we were the better side.

Given that we have had two top class managers at our disposal during that period then, with very different motivational styles and philosophies, not to mention several players that would grace any side in the competition (Hart, Kompany, Ya Ya, Silva, Aguero), the question "Why have we been found wanting so consistently in this constable of a competition?" might at first glance look difficult to answer.

Mental fragility, consistently appalling refereeing, and managerial stubborness (certainly in the case of Pellegrini) have all played their part in our failure unquestionably, but for me the biggest problem is squad composition and the limited playing style that results from it. Put simply, we've got fuck all pace in the attacking, or middle, third (and indeed never have had during the Sheikh Mansour era), no-one who can take a ball past an opponent and then leave them for dead, we seldom counterattack effectively, and conversely we cannot press with any degree of conviction and get caught short-handed at the back as a matter of routine when the opposition does it (counterattacks) to us. Defensive organisation coupled with rapier like thrusts downfield are staples for most teams in Europe, and City with our methodical passing and probing, come gift-wrapped. We might as well hot foot it down to the lion's enclosure at Longleat with a bag of lamb chops tied round our necks and tether ourselves to a stake. To a degree it's the same story in the Premiership where the teams who have caused us most problems since 2011 have not been the rags, Spurs, the Arse or the Dippers, who come to the Etihad prepared to indulge us with an open game, but those who have espoused defensive discipline and mobility, and who have been sufficiently gifted technically to sting us at the other end; Southampton, Chelsea, Swansea, Everton (pre-Martinez). Fortunately they have been few in number.

I've watched a technically limited Celtic side cause Barcelona no end of problems with a terrier like press more than once, and I've watched Spurs (yes, fucking Spurs) sail through to the QF's, simply because they've had the attributes described above to hurt teams with. City though, whilst ostensibly having lots of shiny and expensive individual parts, just don't have the right balance of power and pace in that squad currently to be an effective force in Europe. If we play one up top, it means dropping either Kun or Dzeko, both scoring machines in the Premier League. If we play two up top, we risk being over-run in midfield, particularly if Ya Ya's in there, and if you drop Ya Ya you rob the team of its conductor. If you go for ball retention out wide in the shape of Nasri, you rob the team of impetus and defensive steel, if you go for Navas - a one dimensional touchline hugger - you accentuate the space inside for the opposition to pour into, and if you go for Milner, well his limitations at this level were amply demonstrated last night.

Run through the cast of strikers and midfielders, who have been at our disposal in this most modern of eras, and the lack of pace is a recurrent theme. We've had a smorgasbord of saunterers (Balotelli, Adebayor), those with no change of gear (Negredo, Dzeko, Robinho, Fernando, De Jong, Silva, Nasri, Milner, Tevez), and the out and out slow (Barry, Garcia, Johnson). Only Kun, who is nippy rather than quick, Ya Ya, who's a beast over 30 yards, but not built for shuttle running, Fernandinho and Navas, whose game is so one dimensional that he rarely utilises the one gift he does have, have bucked the trend. That's not a criticism by the way, because the other attributes of each and every one of those players have served us superbly, and domestically they have enabled us to rule the roost. Europe though is a different kettle of fish, and until we avail ourselves of a Sterling, a Sturridge, a Reus or a Bale perhaps, or failing that start sending out a 'team' rather than a collection of our most talented individuals - and it was telling that our best performance in this competition came courtesy of our artesans rather than our artistes - then our Champions League travails will not diminish one jot.
 
For me when we play i high tempo game we look so much better.
What is concerning is when we lose the ball,our desire to win it back just seems lacking.

Fuck knows re the champs league
 
St Helens Blue (Exiled) said:
For me when we play i high tempo game we look so much better.
What is concerning is when we lose the ball,our desire to win it back just seems lacking.

Fuck knows re the champs league

Didn't see much of the City match last night, but I saw a fair bit of the CFC match. Soon as Chelsea lost the ball they were havin' it back, quicksticks. Every match we play is characterised by any team being allowed upto our penalty area before there is a meaningful attempt, and the pace of our passes is only quickened once we get inside the oppo's area!
 
I'd even put the other Bayern match down as near enough a dead rubber as we had qualified and they rested players

We've beat a dreadful Villarreal home & away
Piss poor Cska Home & away
And a conference side in Plzen Home and away

Thats a fuckin unbelievably poor return in 4 years.
 
Yes, we certainly lack pace. Both individually (with one or two exceptions),but more noticably as a team. We find ways to make up for it in the Prem, whilst frustrating many fans who are screaming for the break-out to be kept going only to see it slow to a stop. In Europe we get found out big time in this regard.

We can't really implement it as a tactic without the right personell, but we could certainly improve on it for the present and bear itin mind for future squad purchases.

Its not the be-all-and-end-all, but it makes a difference in the long run, especially in Europe.
 
Mainly we don't do well because our passing game disintegrates in the champions league, we pass the ball so much slower compared to BM, Barca and RM for example, so much so we look pedestrian and make it look like the other team have an extra man always able to put pressure on the receiver straight away which then leads to sloppy passes.

Also we start being panicky at the back and clearances just go straight to the opposition and put us under pressure once again.

Yet we attacked Chelsea from the off and they were damned lucky to get a point but in Europe they look a dominant force, it really is a puzzle.
 
A lot of the questions being asked now are similar to those being asked of Mancini's team before he got sacked. There's a similar thread on the General football forum.

It's plain to see when we play in Europe that our build up play is slow and lethargic. It's similar in the prem but it doesn't get noticed there because we usually have enough quality to break teams down, and the better teams don't fret about the possession we have and at least try to have a go at us.

Retaining possession and building slowly from the back is fine but we need to mix it up. Sometimes it's like we only have one gear. Even if there is the opportunity to counter attack, it goes back to Vinny and we start from scratch. To be fair it's served us well in the prem but we were much quicker at shifting the ball in Pellegrini's early days. Look at Negredo's goal against Liverpool, from one end to the other in no time. It was the same under Mancini when we won the league, lightning quick moving the ball forward in the first half of the season but that ebbed away in the second half of the season and the following season was something more akin to walking pace. If we persist with these tactics we need to move the ball more quickly from a to b and mix our attacks up a bit to put doubt into the opposition. We're so predictable that players whose main attribute is speed like Bale, Sterling or Reus would be wasted on us at the moment.

I also think teams that play more quickly and generally adopt a more positive approach are viewed more positively (maybe subconsciously) by referees. They shouldn't do it but a player starting a quick counter attack gets fouled and we get a booking. We get persistently fouled in our slow build up and it's allowed to pass because it isn't disrupting our flow. It's like American boxing referees who award points for aggression and coming forward. That's probably bollocks but it's how it seems to me and it sometimes culminates with a poor decision like the one for the penalty last night.
 
Exeter Blue I am here said:
We've been in the Champions League for 4 seasons now, and yet last night looked every bit as naïve and vulnerable as we did on our debut against Napoli in 2011.

Despite having been the best side in England over the course of those 4 seasons in terms of points accumulated and trophies won, our record against the most well known teams we have faced in Europe is little short of dire. In games against Munich, Madrid, Dortmund, Ajax, Napoli, Barcelona and Roma, we have mustered 2 wins, 5 draws and 9 defeats, and one of the wins was a dead rubber against a Munich 'B' team, and in one of the draws (Dortmund) we were outclassed from start to finish. And not once during the course of any of those fixtures have I felt confident that we would win, nor even that we were the better side.

Given that we have had two top class managers at our disposal during that period then, with very different motivational styles and philosophies, not to mention several players that would grace any side in the competition (Hart, Kompany, Ya Ya, Silva, Aguero), the question "Why have we been found wanting so consistently in this constable of a competition?" might at first glance look difficult to answer.

Mental fragility, consistently appalling refereeing, and managerial stubborness (certainly in the case of Pellegrini) have all played their part in our failure unquestionably, but for me the biggest problem is squad composition and the limited playing style that results from it. Put simply, we've got fuck all pace in the attacking, or middle, third (and indeed never have had during the Sheikh Mansour era), no-one who can take a ball past an opponent and then leave them for dead, we seldom counterattack effectively, and conversely we cannot press with any degree of conviction and get caught short-handed at the back as a matter of routine when the opposition does it (counterattacks) to us. Defensive organisation coupled with rapier like thrusts downfield are staples for most teams in Europe, and City with our methodical passing and probing, come gift-wrapped. We might as well hot foot it down to the lion's enclosure at Longleat with a bag of lamb chops tied round our necks and tether ourselves to a stake. To a degree it's the same story in the Premiership where the teams who have caused us most problems since 2011 have not been the rags, Spurs, the Arse or the Dippers, who come to the Etihad prepared to indulge us with an open game, but those who have espoused defensive discipline and mobility, and who have been sufficiently gifted technically to sting us at the other end; Southampton, Chelsea, Swansea, Everton (pre-Martinez). Fortunately they have been few in number.

I've watched a technically limited Celtic side cause Barcelona no end of problems with a terrier like press more than once, and I've watched Spurs (yes, fucking Spurs) sail through to the QF's, simply because they've had the attributes described above to hurt teams with. City though, whilst ostensibly having lots of shiny and expensive individual parts, just don't have the right balance of power and pace in that squad currently to be an effective force in Europe. If we play one up top, it means dropping either Kun or Dzeko, both scoring machines in the Premier League. If we play two up top, we risk being over-run in midfield, particularly if Ya Ya's in there, and if you drop Ya Ya you rob the team of its conductor. If you go for ball retention out wide in the shape of Nasri, you rob the team of impetus and defensive steel, if you go for Navas - a one dimensional touchline hugger - you accentuate the space inside for the opposition to pour into, and if you go for Milner, well his limitations at this level were amply demonstrated last night.

Run through the cast of strikers and midfielders, who have been at our disposal in this most modern of eras, and the lack of pace is a recurrent theme. We've had a smorgasbord of saunterers (Balotelli, Adebayor), those with no change of gear (Negredo, Dzeko, Robinho, Fernando, De Jong, Silva, Nasri, Milner, Tevez), and the out and out slow (Barry, Garcia, Johnson). Only Kun, who is nippy rather than quick, Ya Ya, who's a beast over 30 yards, but not built for shuttle running, Fernandinho and Navas, whose game is so one dimensional that he rarely utilises the one gift he does have, have bucked the trend. That's not a criticism by the way, because the other attributes of each and every one of those players have served us superbly, and domestically they have enabled us to rule the roost. Europe though is a different kettle of fish, and until we avail ourselves of a Sterling, a Sturridge, a Reus or a Bale perhaps, or failing that start sending out a 'team' rather than a collection of our most talented individuals - and it was telling that our best performance in this competition came courtesy of our artesans rather than our artistes - then our Champions League travails will not diminish one jot.

In a way you've answered your own question. We don't have certain characteristics within the playing squad and we have a lack of balance in the squad. This means that at times we are hamstrung by how we play. Will a world class winger with pace cure all our ills? I don't think so. Will a world class winger plus a mobile world class midfield player cure our ills? Possibly.

We'll know more next season because the cycle of this current squad is coming to it's end anyway and I've little doubt that our best XI next season will be significantly different to this season's. Maybe we'd have made the changes this summer if FFP hadn't been a consideration.
 
When we are 2-0 up and under pressure 2nd half that's when you need pace to hit teams on the counter. All the top teams in Europe have pace in abundance. Playing at a high tempo is a must as well, we do at times but seem to slow play down to often. Mentally we seem to have a problem or is it just a lack of willingness to work there bollocks off for the team.
 

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