Creating winning teams with "tension in the dressing room"

[Didsbury Dave]

It's the flying off the handle in public, getting into petty spats with players (remember Carlos not warming up enough towards the end of last season), which bugs me. It doesn't show a man in control...

He lost it pretty badly late in the semi final too.

Thank god for the cool heads on the park that day.

 

[SWP's back]

I agree Dave but I would say that last night's action by Mancini is likely to have the opposite affect. Balotelli has been labelled "Mancini's golden boy" ever since he came. Would keeping Balo on, not have had a more antagonising affect on the players that weren't happy with his back heel?

As I say, you may be onto something but I can't work out the relevance of last night on that quote. Mancini was damned if he did or didn't last night, it just depended on your point of view. His decision (or non decision if he'd kept him on) was always going to polarise views, be them on the forum or in the team.

-- Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:07 am --

Whilst good managers are not scared to fly off the handle, in my experience the successful teams are always a close team unit - including the management. Ferguson chucks the odd boot but he's deeply respected by all the players.

Do you not think that's the case at City or do you think he has that respect?

To be honest, from my point of view substituting him (or choosing not to) isn't really the issue. As manager that is Mancini's right. It's the unedifying arguing and gesticulating. When Mario came off and stood in front of the manager yelling, the manager should've just gotten Kiddo or someone to walk the player away and dealt with it behind closed doors. It's the flying off the handle in public, getting into petty spats with players (remember Carlos not warming up enough towards the end of last season), which bugs me. It doesn't show a man in control...

Each to their own I guess Billy. I have to say, I was unimpressed with the substitution last night as I believe (and did at the time) that Balotelli thought there was a whistle. I also thought it poor from Mancini as I knew the media would have the field day they are currently enjoying but Mancini knows the player better than any of us and has won more pots than I so I'll acceot his decision.

Mancini has always reacted in the way he currently does as each club he has been to but it has never stopped his teams enjoying success. I certainly wouldn't swap him for any manager at this present time and have to accept the rough with the smooth. There will always be some aspects of any manager that I wouldn't be 100%.

 

[LongsightM13]

Mancini knows Mario better than anyone in football, and certainly a lot better than anyone on here.
I reckon he has as good an idea as anyone could have about when to apply the carrot or the stick to this particular player in any given situation.
It's a thankless task. Do nothing and people would accuse him of being weak. Dragging him off sees him accused of over-reacting.
I certainly wouldn't like the job of second guessing what on God's green earth is going through Mario's mind at any given time.

So the little back heel last night - what do you seriously think was going through his mind?

IMO, and its purely guess work, players of this ilk strive for the outlandish and unpredictability nature of football - what bobby is doing, just like danepack is ironing out the creases, Ronaldo as an example is perfect - 21 step overs became 3/4, the soft rolling over became a strong, powerful all rounded player, he was also a petulant little prick for first 18 months which was turned into arrogance by fergie as a tool on the field.

People may not like him but when those little flicks, back heels or overhead kicks start coming off i'll remember how he got there.

I wouldn't even hazard a guess. I was speaking in more general terms.
What I do think, though, and I am in agreement with you here, is that Mario will have learned a lesson last night about the time and place for tricks — and both he and City will be the better for it.
Unlike Billy, I don't see two Italian men being Italian in pre-season as something to get especially upset about. After all, by that logic, then wouldn't some of Mourinho's bizarre antics and statements demonstrate an even more worrying lack of control?
The analogy with the Tranny is a good one, by the way, Zin — both were to a large extent doing their growing up in the spotlight.

 

[SWP's back]

Do you not think that's the case at City or do you think he has that respect?

Depends what you mean by respect. I think he has a different relationship with the players than Ferguson, for example. To be fair to Ferguson; he has won so much he will always be respected and have ultimate authority, so it's easy for him now. But from what I'm told by people at United, he is ultimately liked and seen as an ally/father figure by pretty much all the staff. He's amazingly good at the touchy-feely side of management - having a personal relationship with his players which gets the best from them.

I think Mancini himself would tell you he's not interested in being liked. The debate my post wanted to start was, I guess, does he need to be liked to do his job properly?

Can anyone think of an example of a manager unpopular with the players who lead them to great things?

It's difficult to answer genuinely without knowing the ins and outs of successful dressing rooms but I can't think of any notable examples no.

I don't think you have to be loved as a manager so long as you are respected but watching training at Carrington, whilst Mancini does not seem "one of the lads", he does still laugh and joke with the players when the mood is right. Especially during games of 6 a side on the half pitch. There certainly is no air of hatred or resentment around when I have been.

 

[LongsightM13]

As the owners have stated previoulsly, Manchester City is a "project"... and a project has different phases and different requirements at various times.

We are in the first phase of the project where we need a "hard man" to instill discipline, a culture, the rules and regulations... to be the "bad cop" who strikes fear into anyone who crosses him. Look at how Mancini has treated any player that has taken him on... all dumped.

This, to me, is a clear strategy on the part of the club to establish a particular culture within the club, before it can move on to the next phase.

I remember when Fergie took over at OT, was universally hated by the players at the time, he sacrificed McGrath and Whiteside and Sharpe to show who was boss. He was unrelenting and totally focussed on instilling his methods at the club.

But that approach can only work for 3 or 4 seasons before the kickbacks from the players become overwhelming. So a quality manager changes his stance appropriately... just as Fergie has done over the years,.

The managers who can't adapt will die. That's why Fergie changes his teams every 4 or 5 years, and why no one dares take him on any more! I believe Mancini is following this blueprint, and that the "problems" we have suffered over the time in charge will reduce.

But if he can't adapt, then he will be cast aside if he ever loses the dressing room. It's a difficult juggling act!

Good post. You can substitute Ade, Bells, Robinho for the three rag pisscans and the situation is similar.
People also seem to forget that it took Shakin Bacon a lot longer than Roberto to get his first trophy. And while we have spent a lot of money, so did they at the time. Remember the team that we walloped in the 5-1 was at the time the most expensive ever assembled in the history of English football.
So to compare Roberto's managerial culture unfavourably with Ferguson's — cultivated over decades of almost Stalinist levels of control — is not fair in my opinion.

 

[SWP's back]

As the owners have stated previoulsly, Manchester City is a "project"... and a project has different phases and different requirements at various times.

We are in the first phase of the project where we need a "hard man" to instill discipline, a culture, the rules and regulations... to be the "bad cop" who strikes fear into anyone who crosses him. Look at how Mancini has treated any player that has taken him on... all dumped.

This, to me, is a clear strategy on the part of the club to establish a particular culture within the club, before it can move on to the next phase.

I remember when Fergie took over at OT, was universally hated by the players at the time, he sacrificed McGrath and Whiteside and Sharpe to show who was boss. He was unrelenting and totally focussed on instilling his methods at the club.

But that approach can only work for 3 or 4 seasons before the kickbacks from the players become overwhelming. So a quality manager changes his stance appropriately... just as Fergie has done over the years,.

The managers who can't adapt will die. That's why Fergie changes his teams every 4 or 5 years, and why no one dares take him on any more! I believe Mancini is following this blueprint, and that the "problems" we have suffered over the time in charge will reduce.

But if he can't adapt, then he will be cast aside if he ever loses the dressing room. It's a difficult juggling act!

Good post. You can substitute Ade, Bells, Robinho for the three rag pisscans and the situation is similar.
People also seem to forget that it took Shakin Bacon a lot longer than Roberto to get his first trophy. And while we have spent a lot of money, so did they at the time. Remember the team that we walloped in the 5-1 was at the time the most expensive ever assembled in the history of English football.
So to compare Roberto's managerial culture unfavourably with Ferguson's — cultivated over decades of almost Stalinist levels of control — is not fair in my opinion.

Both of the above seem fair assessments.

 

[1_barry_conlon]

But last night's wierd Balotelli incident brought this quote back to mind to me. Is the creation of an aggressive, slightly antagonistic culture part of Mancini's grand plan? Does he want the players to bond together in a kind of "I'll show you" way? Remember the story of the senior pros kicking the management out of the dressing room at half time in the FA Cup semi final? That team attitude got us through and was the springboard for the season.

Maybe, just maybe, the thing which I've personally criticized Mancini for is going to be his joker in the pack?

I'm not sure I agree that a "one size fits all" method is the best way to get the best out of your players. Each one is different and will more than likely respond to different stimulus. If you treat them all the same way all the time then there's a chance while you're getting 110% out of some of them, you're only getting 70/80% out of others.

I think managers should be smart enough to know which players react to what and adaptable enough to coach them in that way.

Totally agree. Fergusons man management skills are testimony to that. He knows who to indulge,put an arm around or give them a kick up the arse and all at the right time.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

As the owners have stated previoulsly, Manchester City is a "project"... and a project has different phases and different requirements at various times.

We are in the first phase of the project where we need a "hard man" to instill discipline, a culture, the rules and regulations... to be the "bad cop" who strikes fear into anyone who crosses him. Look at how Mancini has treated any player that has taken him on... all dumped.

This, to me, is a clear strategy on the part of the club to establish a particular culture within the club, before it can move on to the next phase.

I remember when Fergie took over at OT, was universally hated by the players at the time, he sacrificed McGrath and Whiteside and Sharpe to show who was boss. He was unrelenting and totally focussed on instilling his methods at the club.

But that approach can only work for 3 or 4 seasons before the kickbacks from the players become overwhelming. So a quality manager changes his stance appropriately... just as Fergie has done over the years,.

The managers who can't adapt will die. That's why Fergie changes his teams every 4 or 5 years, and why no one dares take him on any more! I believe Mancini is following this blueprint, and that the "problems" we have suffered over the time in charge will reduce.

But if he can't adapt, then he will be cast aside if he ever loses the dressing room. It's a difficult juggling act!

Good post. You can substitute Ade, Bells, Robinho for the three rag pisscans and the situation is similar.
People also seem to forget that it took Shakin Bacon a lot longer than Roberto to get his first trophy. And while we have spent a lot of money, so did they at the time. Remember the team that we walloped in the 5-1 was at the time the most expensive ever assembled in the history of English football.
So to compare Roberto's managerial culture unfavourably with Ferguson's — cultivated over decades of almost Stalinist levels of control — is not fair in my opinion.

Both of the above seem fair assessments.

I like Soulboy's thinking on this too, although I'm not 100% convinced.

Do we all agree that we should see a lot more harmony in the dressing room this season at City?

 

[SWP's back]

Good post. You can substitute Ade, Bells, Robinho for the three rag pisscans and the situation is similar.
People also seem to forget that it took Shakin Bacon a lot longer than Roberto to get his first trophy. And while we have spent a lot of money, so did they at the time. Remember the team that we walloped in the 5-1 was at the time the most expensive ever assembled in the history of English football.
So to compare Roberto's managerial culture unfavourably with Ferguson's — cultivated over decades of almost Stalinist levels of control — is not fair in my opinion.

Both of the above seem fair assessments.

I like Soulboy's thinking on this too, although I'm not 100% convinced.

Do we all agree that we should see a lot more harmony in the dressing room this season at City?

Yes though authority should be exerted when needed. (Think Beckham receiving a boot in the face and the "infamous hairdrier")

 

[1_barry_conlon]

Good post. You can substitute Ade, Bells, Robinho for the three rag pisscans and the situation is similar.
People also seem to forget that it took Shakin Bacon a lot longer than Roberto to get his first trophy. And while we have spent a lot of money, so did they at the time. Remember the team that we walloped in the 5-1 was at the time the most expensive ever assembled in the history of English football.
So to compare Roberto's managerial culture unfavourably with Ferguson's — cultivated over decades of almost Stalinist levels of control — is not fair in my opinion.

Both of the above seem fair assessments.

I like Soulboy's thinking on this too, although I'm not 100% convinced.

Do we all agree that we should see a lot more harmony in the dressing room this season at City?[/quote]


I'd like Brian Kidd's opinion on that one.

Bearing in mind he's seen it once with the most successful manager.

 

[Soulboy]

Good post. You can substitute Ade, Bells, Robinho for the three rag pisscans and the situation is similar.
People also seem to forget that it took Shakin Bacon a lot longer than Roberto to get his first trophy. And while we have spent a lot of money, so did they at the time. Remember the team that we walloped in the 5-1 was at the time the most expensive ever assembled in the history of English football.
So to compare Roberto's managerial culture unfavourably with Ferguson's — cultivated over decades of almost Stalinist levels of control — is not fair in my opinion.

Both of the above seem fair assessments.

I like Soulboy's thinking on this too, although I'm not 100% convinced.

Do we all agree that we should see a lot more harmony in the dressing room this season at City?

I don't!

I think it is still early in the "project" and there will be many fall-outs again next season.

I doubt that things will quieten until we've truly established ourselves at the very top table. This won't happen this season, so the "tension" that DD refers to will continue. The manager is on a tightrope, he knows, and even the players know it. Mancini knows he has to deliver.

His comments recently about more control of the club are testimony to that. He accepts that Fergie has it because he's been successful, so can justify the control... and Mancini realises that he too must win to achieve the control.

And control, at this stage, means confrontation. Until it is a team of his players, proven over time, Mancini canot relax. I doubt it is in his nature.

But I still believe that in a couple of years Mancini will have to modify his behaviour. To relax. To enjoy the game. Even Mourinho's style at Chelsea had a sell-by date.

But next season? Not a chance...

 

[Anonymous]

Whilst good managers are not scared to fly off the handle, in my experience the successful teams are always a close team unit - including the management. Ferguson chucks the odd boot but he's deeply respected by all the players.

I think they respect him due to the fact that he creates a siege mentality and then goes into bat for his team (how many cliches!?). If the press have a pop at the team, bacon face is the first to be up and at them. If the FA have a go, he's onto the press. The players know that he will stand up for them in public no matter what. They get the treatment 'behind closed doors' when they're not giving their all. I hate the man with a passion, but you have to give him respect for this as his players will run through brick walls for him. It is that and a climate of fear/bullying that makes that shower of shite what it is on the pitch.

Mancini is doing something similar, however instead of fear/bullying, it's all about discipline and winning. I've said it previously about Mancini, and know I will get laughed at, but Mancini really puts me in mind of the great Brian Clough.

 

[Ticket For Schalke]

Comparing Mancini and Ferguson is ludocris, ones been here 5 mins and ones been there a generation, as soulboy stated, He didnt have it his own way when he arrived, and now with players egos at an all time high, its more difficult than ever to integrate your own methods.

I personally believe the players believe in Mancini's methods, wether the players like Mancini is up for debate, but i truely believe they respect him, the backend of last season proves that IMO.

 

[Mancio]

Do you not think that's the case at City or do you think he has that respect?

Depends what you mean by respect. I think he has a different relationship with the players than Ferguson, for example. To be fair to Ferguson; he has won so much he will always be respected and have ultimate authority, so it's easy for him now. But from what I'm told by people at United, he is ultimately liked and seen as an ally/father figure by pretty much all the staff. He's amazingly good at the touchy-feely side of management - having a personal relationship with his players which gets the best from them.

I think Mancini himself would tell you he's not interested in being liked. The debate my post wanted to start was, I guess, does he need to be liked to do his job properly?

Can anyone think of an example of a manager unpopular with the players who lead them to great things?

capello.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Both of the above seem fair assessments.

I like Soulboy's thinking on this too, although I'm not 100% convinced.

Do we all agree that we should see a lot more harmony in the dressing room this season at City?

I don't!

I think it is still early in the "project" and there will be many fall-outs again next season.

I doubt that things will quieten until we've truly established ourselves at the very top table. This won't happen this season, so the "tension" that DD refers to will continue. The manager is on a tightrope, he knows, and even the players know it. Mancini knows he has to deliver.

His comments recently about more control of the club are testimony to that. He accepts that Fergie has it because he's been successful, so can justify the control... and Mancini realises that he too must win to achieve the control.

And control, at this stage, means confrontation. Until it is a team of his players, proven over time, Mancini canot relax. I doubt it is in his nature.

But I still believe that in a couple of years Mancini will have to modify his behaviour. To relax. To enjoy the game. Even Mourinho's style at Chelsea had a sell-by date.

But next season? Not a chance...

Not sure I believe Mancini can ever change if I'm honest. He's combative and egotistical, and it appears to me that he's had a fairly short shelf life at all of his clubs for that reason.

So I do agree there will be more confict behind the scenes. But I don't think Abu Dhabi would want much more of it, if I'm honest, and that in itself could well be the cause of more conflict at a higher level.

It isn't going to be dull, no doubt about that. I think the problem with this conflict approach is it doesn't buy the manager much slack. If things aren't going well the dressing room can easily turn against him and that could be fatal. I agree 100% the pressure is bang on Mancini to maintain some momentum. If we're not within a few points of the league leaders at Christmas we'll see him stressing like he was last spring again.

but the flipside is the more he wins the more authority he has...top of the league at Christmas and he can do what he wants.

 

[Ticket For Schalke]

I like Soulboy's thinking on this too, although I'm not 100% convinced.

Do we all agree that we should see a lot more harmony in the dressing room this season at City?

I don't!

I think it is still early in the "project" and there will be many fall-outs again next season.

I doubt that things will quieten until we've truly established ourselves at the very top table. This won't happen this season, so the "tension" that DD refers to will continue. The manager is on a tightrope, he knows, and even the players know it. Mancini knows he has to deliver.

His comments recently about more control of the club are testimony to that. He accepts that Fergie has it because he's been successful, so can justify the control... and Mancini realises that he too must win to achieve the control.

And control, at this stage, means confrontation. Until it is a team of his players, proven over time, Mancini canot relax. I doubt it is in his nature.

But I still believe that in a couple of years Mancini will have to modify his behaviour. To relax. To enjoy the game. Even Mourinho's style at Chelsea had a sell-by date.

But next season? Not a chance...

Not sure I believe Mancini can ever change if I'm honest. He's combative and egotistical, and it appears to me that he's had a fairly short shelf life at all of his clubs for that reason.

So I do agree there will be more confict behind the scenes. But I don't think Abu Dhabi would want much more of it, if I'm honest, and that in itself could well be the cause of more conflict at a higher level.

It isn't going to be dull, no doubt about that. I think the problem with this conflict approach is it doesn't buy the manager much slack. If things aren't going well the dressing room can easily turn against him and that could be fatal. I agree 100% the pressure is bang on Mancini to maintain some momentum. If we're not within a few points of the league leaders at Christmas we'll see him stressing like he was last spring again.

but the flipside is the more he wins the more authority he has...top of the league at Christmas and he can do what he wants.

To be fair, in Italy Mancini's short shelf life, was because each time he moved to a bigger club, so thats unfair, and he was at Sampdoria for a very long time, regardless as a player or manager.

 

[SWP's back]

I like Soulboy's thinking on this too, although I'm not 100% convinced.

Do we all agree that we should see a lot more harmony in the dressing room this season at City?

I don't!

I think it is still early in the "project" and there will be many fall-outs again next season.

I doubt that things will quieten until we've truly established ourselves at the very top table. This won't happen this season, so the "tension" that DD refers to will continue. The manager is on a tightrope, he knows, and even the players know it. Mancini knows he has to deliver.

His comments recently about more control of the club are testimony to that. He accepts that Fergie has it because he's been successful, so can justify the control... and Mancini realises that he too must win to achieve the control.

And control, at this stage, means confrontation. Until it is a team of his players, proven over time, Mancini canot relax. I doubt it is in his nature.

But I still believe that in a couple of years Mancini will have to modify his behaviour. To relax. To enjoy the game. Even Mourinho's style at Chelsea had a sell-by date.

But next season? Not a chance...

Not sure I believe Mancini can ever change if I'm honest. He's combative and egotistical, and it appears to me that he's had a fairly short shelf life at all of his clubs for that reason.

Does he not hold the record for longest serving manager at Inter?

 

[bobom]

It seems clear to me that Mancini doesn't use a one-size-fits-all approach, it's just that when one a striker pointlessly cocks up a big goalscoring opportunity, that's not acceptable.
I think most good managers accept you have to treat different players differently, but that doesn't mean there isn't a bottom line.
Can anyone see Baconface, Maurinho, Capello (!) acting any differently?

 

[Mancio]

I like Soulboy's thinking on this too, although I'm not 100% convinced.

Do we all agree that we should see a lot more harmony in the dressing room this season at City?

I don't!

I think it is still early in the "project" and there will be many fall-outs again next season.

I doubt that things will quieten until we've truly established ourselves at the very top table. This won't happen this season, so the "tension" that DD refers to will continue. The manager is on a tightrope, he knows, and even the players know it. Mancini knows he has to deliver.

His comments recently about more control of the club are testimony to that. He accepts that Fergie has it because he's been successful, so can justify the control... and Mancini realises that he too must win to achieve the control.

And control, at this stage, means confrontation. Until it is a team of his players, proven over time, Mancini canot relax. I doubt it is in his nature.

But I still believe that in a couple of years Mancini will have to modify his behaviour. To relax. To enjoy the game. Even Mourinho's style at Chelsea had a sell-by date.

But next season? Not a chance...

Not sure I believe Mancini can ever change if I'm honest. He's combative and egotistical, and it appears to me that he's had a fairly short shelf life at all of his clubs for that reason.

So I do agree there will be more confict behind the scenes. But I don't think Abu Dhabi would want much more of it, if I'm honest, and that in itself could well be the cause of more conflict at a higher level.

It isn't going to be dull, no doubt about that. I think the problem with this conflict approach is it doesn't buy the manager much slack. If things aren't going well the dressing room can easily turn against him and that could be fatal. I agree 100% the pressure is bang on Mancini to maintain some momentum. If we're not within a few points of the league leaders at Christmas we'll see him stressing like he was last spring again.

but the flipside is the more he wins the more authority he has...top of the league at Christmas and he can do what he wants.

PMSL

4 years at inter are good for the guiness book LOL

either you dont know what you are saying or you are in bad faith

 

[schfc6]

mancini was hated by large part of inter players. anyway they delivered for him.

Seems an odd thing to make up. As two of his players came and joined us, their star left and is constantly linked with us (Ibra). Maicon was constantly linked with us also. So which players hated him?
Perhaps the senior players were not happy he wanted rid of them. Figo et al were comfortable players and didn't like change. Top bosses remove players like that from a squad. Mourinho's first moves at Real was to get rid of Raul & Guti, Mancini 'sto get rid of Bellamy and Robinho and if this new guy at Chelseas has a brain he'll get rid of Lampard and Terry. Big personalities with big attitude think they run a club. They don't, you used to hear constant stories of Raul moaning about training and such and we're always hearing how Terry runs Chelsea. Most players at City seem to have a great relationship with Mancini, Kompany, De Jong, Richards, HArt all seem to have an awful lot of respect for him, and you see a lot of the squad laughing and joking in training, and Mancini joining in. You can even read how Aguero is joining thanks to a 'glowing reference' from Tevez.
People can say what they like about Mancini, his tactics, he player relationships his laid back attitude, but no one can question the improvements he's made to us, and the players.