Do Aliens actually exist ?

NPBlue said:
I was a student in Brighton in the late 70's and early 80's and Mithras House was a centre of our learning. I never thought anything of it until, a few years ago, I walked the Hadrians Wall Path in Northumberland and beyond, and came accross a small shrine to Mithras.

Apparantly, they killed cattle as an offering to their Gods.

That is all.
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Pagan weirdos is all I’ll say ;-)
 
NPBlue said:
I was a student in Brighton in the late 70's and early 80's and Mithras House was a centre of our learning. I never thought anything of it until, a few years ago, I walked the Hadrians Wall Path in Northumberland and beyond, and came accross a small shrine to Mithras.

Apparantly, they killed cattle as an offering to their Gods.

That is all.
Click to expand...
They still do that in parts of Oldham.
 
Do aliens actually exist? - by which the poster seems to ask, does intelligent non-human life exist?
===
IMO - a resounding "Yes" - alien intelligence does exist, and likely within our own galaxy.

The universe is vast - perhaps infinite. Somewhere out there among the stars are sentient beings - perhaps even now skanning their skies and looking, however briefly at our sun, wondering too, "Is there intelligent life out there?"
===
That said, it's amazing that life on earth - let alone intelligent life - evolved.

Correct distance from a "benign" star - large moon to stabilize spin - large enough to form a long-lived protective magnetic field - in a solar system where a single star evolved (most systems have 2 stars) - at an age where enough elements have been created to form life - in an area of the galaxy where elements possibly necessary for life are abundant enough - but also where stars are not dense enough such that radiation does not overwhelm our magnetic field.

And for the potential to become space-faring - a terrestrial intelligence, with the ability to light fires and harness metallurgy seems requisite - intelligent life locked to underwater existence might well never develop advanced technologies - or at least will have a much harder time than land-based intelligence.

Too, life-ending catastrophes - climate change, run-away volcanism, collision with asteroids, comments, or indeed other planets - proximity to stellar novas - and so forth.
===
Intelligent life prima facie must be rare. And indeed, in spite of the vast distance between planets, if intelligent life were common-place, likely some other species in our galaxy would have made contact by now.

Yet, the galaxy is vast - with an estimated 100,000 million stars. And 2 million, million galaxies in the observable universe... numbers so large that they boggle every-day comprehension.

However unlikely intelligent life is, the vast expanse of space swamps such odds - numerous intelligent species must certainly exist.

Moreover, it's very likely that space is infinite - if so, infinitely many intelligent life forms must exist.
===
It's also instructive to consider the case where the universe is infinite. Within an infinite universe, assuming a uniform distribution of mass, there is a finite limit within a 13.8 billion light-year cube of how matter might possibly be arranged. Which means... somewhere out there - so, very, very far away - is another exact copy of earth - with an exact copy of you and me... and even farther away... another copy... and another... and another.
===
It's far more likely, I think, that an infinitely many copies of myself exist in our universe than that mankind is the sole intelligent lifeform.
 
BlueMoonFromAcrossThePond said:
Do aliens actually exist? - by which the poster seems to ask, does intelligent non-human life exist?
===
IMO - a resounding "Yes" - alien intelligence does exist, and likely within our own galaxy.

The universe is vast - perhaps infinite. Somewhere out there among the stars are sentient beings - perhaps even now skanning their skies and looking, however briefly at our sun, wondering too, "Is there intelligent life out there?"
===
That said, it's amazing that life on earth - let alone intelligent life - evolved.

Correct distance from a "benign" star - large moon to stabilize spin - large enough to form a long-lived protective magnetic field - in a solar system where a single star evolved (most systems have 2 stars) - at an age where enough elements have been created to form life - in an area of the galaxy where elements possibly necessary for life are abundant enough - but also where stars are not dense enough such that radiation does not overwhelm our magnetic field.

And for the potential to become space-faring - a terrestrial intelligence, with the ability to light fires and harness metallurgy seems requisite - intelligent life locked to underwater existence might well never develop advanced technologies - or at least will have a much harder time than land-based intelligence.

Too, life-ending catastrophes - climate change, run-away volcanism, collision with asteroids, comments, or indeed other planets - proximity to stellar novas - and so forth.
===
Intelligent life prima facie must be rare. And indeed, in spite of the vast distance between planets, if intelligent life were common-place, likely some other species in our galaxy would have made contact by now.

Yet, the galaxy is vast - with an estimated 100,000 million stars. And 2 million, million galaxies in the observable universe... numbers so large that they boggle every-day comprehension.

However unlikely intelligent life is, the vast expanse of space swamps such odds - numerous intelligent species must certainly exist.

Moreover, it's very likely that space is infinite - if so, infinitely many intelligent life forms must exist.
===
It's also instructive to consider the case where the universe is infinite. Within an infinite universe, assuming a uniform distribution of mass, there is a finite limit within a 13.8 billion light-year cube of how matter might possibly be arranged. Which means... somewhere out there - so, very, very far away - is another exact copy of earth - with an exact copy of you and me... and even farther away... another copy... and another... and another.
===
It's far more likely, I think, that an infinitely many copies of myself exist in our universe than that mankind is the sole intelligent lifeform.
Click to expand...

And yet despite all that the universe you talk of and know, the baryonic universe, constitutes less than 5% of the matter and energy that exists.
Most of the universe is completely undetectable by us at the moment, made up of dark matter and energy.
Maybe what you consider to be the “universe” is an aberration.
 
denislawsbackheel said:
And yet despite all that the universe you talk of and know, the baryonic universe, constitutes less than 5% of the matter and energy that exists.
Most of the universe is completely undetectable by us at the moment, made up of dark matter and energy.
Maybe what you consider to be the “universe” is an aberration.
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The baryonic universe is indeed a small proportion of the universe - granted.

I very much fail to see how this at all impacts any of the observations I made in my post. Hell, even if baryonic matter constituted 0.00000000000000001% of observable matter - or at the other extreme - 100% - my arguments still stand.

That is, we can estimate the number of stars in our universe regardless- and too, the "shape of the universe" appears to be flat - that is, it appears to be infinite - and moreover astonishingly homogeneous.
 
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Trouble with your “observations” is that are just faith statements not arguments.
There is absolutely no evidence that there is even single called life anywhere else than earth.
You seem to think numbers matter but in the context of a universe, which is not infinite if you accept a beginning and expansion, no matter how large the numbers they are they become insignificant. The zeros might blow our minds, but cosmologically they mean nothing. There is no evidence the universe is flat indeed current thought is that it has a probability of 99% of being curved, no one knows how much of the universe is unobservable and indeed as universal acceleration increases the observable number of stars will decrease until eventually no stars will be observable apart from the sun.
 
BlueMoonFromAcrossThePond said:
Do aliens actually exist? - by which the poster seems to ask, does intelligent non-human life exist?
===
IMO - a resounding "Yes" - alien intelligence does exist, and likely within our own galaxy.

The universe is vast - perhaps infinite. Somewhere out there among the stars are sentient beings - perhaps even now skanning their skies and looking, however briefly at our sun, wondering too, "Is there intelligent life out there?"
===
That said, it's amazing that life on earth - let alone intelligent life - evolved.

Correct distance from a "benign" star - large moon to stabilize spin - large enough to form a long-lived protective magnetic field - in a solar system where a single star evolved (most systems have 2 stars) - at an age where enough elements have been created to form life - in an area of the galaxy where elements possibly necessary for life are abundant enough - but also where stars are not dense enough such that radiation does not overwhelm our magnetic field.

And for the potential to become space-faring - a terrestrial intelligence, with the ability to light fires and harness metallurgy seems requisite - intelligent life locked to underwater existence might well never develop advanced technologies - or at least will have a much harder time than land-based intelligence.

Too, life-ending catastrophes - climate change, run-away volcanism, collision with asteroids, comments, or indeed other planets - proximity to stellar novas - and so forth.
===
Intelligent life prima facie must be rare. And indeed, in spite of the vast distance between planets, if intelligent life were common-place, likely some other species in our galaxy would have made contact by now.

Yet, the galaxy is vast - with an estimated 100,000 million stars. And 2 million, million galaxies in the observable universe... numbers so large that they boggle every-day comprehension.

However unlikely intelligent life is, the vast expanse of space swamps such odds - numerous intelligent species must certainly exist.

Moreover, it's very likely that space is infinite - if so, infinitely many intelligent life forms must exist.
===
It's also instructive to consider the case where the universe is infinite. Within an infinite universe, assuming a uniform distribution of mass, there is a finite limit within a 13.8 billion light-year cube of how matter might possibly be arranged. Which means... somewhere out there - so, very, very far away - is another exact copy of earth - with an exact copy of you and me... and even farther away... another copy... and another... and another.
===
It's far more likely, I think, that an infinitely many copies of myself exist in our universe than that mankind is the sole intelligent lifeform.
Click to expand...
It's not very likely that space is infinite, BTW. It's a possibility, that is all. The reality is we have no idea.
 
Chippy_boy said:
It's true that we do not know for certain. But all of our measurements to date suggest that the universe is in fact infinite. The logical alternative is that the universe curves back in upon itself. This second alternative is proving less and less likely as more and more measurements with increasing accuracy occur.
Click to expand...

The final alternate is that the universe is flat but somehow comes up against a hard edge - is possible. But it's entire against anything we've observed and is rejected as likely by cosmologists.
 
Chippy_boy said:
It's not very likely that space is infinite, BTW. It's a possibility, that is all. The reality is we have no idea.
Click to expand...
It is in fact likely that space is infinite. We do in fact have good reason to believe so.

It is however, possible that space curves in upon itself at a very, very, very small rate of curvature.

It's also possible that space somehow behaves entirely out-of-norm at some point and comes to a hard edge.

We have attempted to measure the curvature of space with a great deal of accuracy - so far, all measurements indicate that the universe is infinite.
===
On the other hand, it's true that some fat guy somewhere is responsible for the recent hacks into sensitive USA government websites; and not the Russians.

It's possible that climate change isn't real.

It's possible that evolution is wrong and that intelligent design is true.

Each of the above claims is extremely unlikely to be true however based on facts on hand. So too is the claim that we have no idea about whether or not space is finite (albeit to a lesser extent).
 
BlueMoonFromAcrossThePond said:
The final alternate is that the universe is flat but somehow comes up against a hard edge - is possible. But it's entire against anything we've observed and is rejected as likely by cosmologists.
Click to expand...
Sorry that is just not correct. A flat universe - if indeed it is flat - can be either finite or infinite. It does not need a hard edge in order to be finite, and I agree that is a ludicrous idea.

Or it could be finite now, but continually expanding so that it becomes infinite at T=infinity. We simply do not know and there is no consensus view amongst top scientists. Or at least if there is, then I am all ears.

EDIT: I see you added more. What you added is still wrong (sorry). All measurements DO NOT show that the universe is infinite. They merely show that we have failed to detect that it is finite. The two things are completely different.
 
Chippy_boy said:
Sorry that is just not correct. A flat universe - if indeed it is flat - can be either finite or infinite. It does not need a hard edge in order to be finite, and I agree that is a ludicrous idea.

Or it could be finite now, but continually expanding so that it becomes infinite at T=infinity. We simply do not know and there is no consensus view amongst top scientists. Or at least if there is, then I am all ears.

EDIT: I see you added more. What you added is still wrong (sorry). All measurements DO NOT show that the universe is infinite. They merely show that we have failed to detect that it is finite. The two things are completely different.
Click to expand...

It’s a restaurant isn’t it?
 
Chippy_boy said:
Sorry that is just not correct. A flat universe - if indeed it is flat - can be either finite or infinite. It does not need a hard edge in order to be finite, and I agree that is a ludicrous idea.

Or it could be finite now, but continually expanding so that it becomes infinite at T=infinity. We simply do not know and there is no consensus view amongst top scientists. Or at least if there is, then I am all ears.

EDIT: I see you added more. What you added is still wrong (sorry). All measurements DO NOT show that the universe is infinite. They merely show that we have failed to detect that it is finite. The two things are completely different.
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Agree that the outcome - infinite versus not - is undecided.

I did not claim that measurements showing lack of curvature prove that the universe is flat - you've misinterpreted my statements. I do claim that if the universe does curve in upon itself, it is extremely gradual and is beyond our capability to measure.

It seems to me that a finite but infinitely expanding universe must entail a hard edge. This idea does seem to be open among cosmologists though.
 
denislawsbackheel said:
There is no evidence the universe is flat indeed current thought is that it has a probability of 99% of being curved
Click to expand...
>> There is no evidence the universe is flat
Huh?

>> Indeed current thought is that it has a probability of 99% of being curved
Based on what? Source?
 
BlueMoonFromAcrossThePond said:
Agree that the outcome - infinite versus not - is undecided.

I did not claim that measurements showing lack of curvature prove that the universe is flat - you've misinterpreted my statements. I do claim that if the universe does curve in upon itself, it is extremely gradual and is beyond our capability to measure.

It seems to me that a finite but infinitely expanding universe must entail a hard edge. This idea does seem to be open among cosmologists though.
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I'm glad you now agree that it is undecided, but further, there is no consensus that an infinite universe is the more likely scenario. As I say, we simply do not know.

Once again however, a finite curved universe does *not* imply an edge. Spacetime itself is curved and therefore - in the finite universe scenario - there is no greater volume for the universe to expand *into*. The finite curved universe *is* the entirety of everything. You need to get away from this idea of a sphere suspended *in* some larger space - it's a flawed concept.
 
Chippy_boy said:
I'm glad you now agree that it is undecided, but further, there is no consensus that an infinite universe is the more likely scenario. As I say, we simply do not know.

Once again however, a finite curved universe does *not* imply an edge. Spacetime itself is curved and therefore - in the finite universe scenario - there is no greater volume for the universe to expand *into*. The finite curved universe *is* the entirety of everything. You need to get away from this idea of a sphere suspended *in* some larger space - it's a flawed concept.
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>> Once again however, a finite curved universe does *not* imply an edge.
Obviously a curved universe does not need to have an edge.

My statement once more is this (flat added for further clarification):
It seems to me that a finite but infinitely expanding *flat* universe must entail a hard edge. If the universe is curved but expanding, obviously this isn't so. See above.

To reiterate - there's no evidence that the universe is curved - indeed, in spite of our best measurements, the universe appears to be flat. That's not to say, however, that the universe is flat - indeed the curvature of the universe should it exist may simply be beyond our capability to measure, and that in fact, the universe is curved, possibly finite, possibly infinite.

The finite versus infinite universe conundrum may unfortunately reside in Pauli's category of questions whose answer is "not even wrong."
 
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BlueMoonFromAcrossThePond said:
>> Once again however, a finite curved universe does *not* imply an edge.
Obviously a curved universe does not need to have an edge.

My statement once more is this (flat added for further clarification):
It seems to me that a finite but infinitely expanding *flat* universe must entail a hard edge. If the universe is curved but expanding, obviously this isn't so. See above.

To reiterate - there's no evidence that the universe is curved - indeed, in spite of our best measurements, the universe appears to be flat. That's not to say, however, that the curvature of the universe is beyond our capability to measure, and that in fact, the universe is curved, possibly finite, possibly infinite, but beyond our ability to measure.
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It is not clear to me whether you understand what a flat universe means. All it means is that it obeys Euclidian geometry, i.e. triangles add up to 180 degrees, parallel lines never meet etc. A universe which obeys these properties is said to be flat - in that a 2D representation of such a universe could be laid on a flat piece of paper.

The question then is, is such a flat piece of paper infinite or finite? Whether the universe is flat or not, has no bearing on whether it may be infinite or not. The piece of paper could be donut shaped and finite but still flat, still obeying Euclidian geometry. Or it could be infinite.

Anyway, enough of this. I stepped in merely to pick you up on your "it is very likely that the universe is infinite" line.
 
Chippy_boy said:
It is not clear to me whether you understand what a flat universe means. All it means is that it obeys Euclidian geometry, i.e. triangles add up to 180 degrees, parallel lines never meet etc. A universe which obeys these properties is said to be flat - in that a 2D representation of such a universe could be laid on a flat piece of paper.

The question then is, is such a flat piece of paper infinite or finite? Whether the universe is flat or not, has no bearing on whether it may be infinite or not. The piece of paper could be donut shaped and finite but still flat, still obeying Euclidian geometry. Or it could be infinite.

Anyway, enough of this. I stepped in merely to pick you up on your "it is very likely that the universe is infinite" line.
Click to expand...

Touche.
 
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