Donald Trump

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FogBlueInSanFran said:
I'm not sure I can tell you. But he can win. I think he has a better chance to beat Trump than Sanders. I don't care about policies. I want Trump out. I'm very black and white and pragmatic about this. We can discuss variations on the theme later.
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And this is where he'd fail.

As much as I hate the fat fooked Orange One, he's riding on the crest of an economy that's working for now for the middle class and rich. The job numbers tell a tale that's not quite true, but they work.

I may be wrong, but I think people would rather stick with the devil they know, than one with nothing to give them as an option.

From everything I watch and read about from all sources, that's the underlying message I get.
 
Bigga said:
And this is where he'd fail.

As much as I hate the fat fooked Orange One, he's riding on the crest of an economy that's working for now for the middle class and rich. The job numbers tell a tale that's not quite true, but they work.

I may be wrong, but I think people would rather stick with the devil they know, than one with nothing to give them as an option.

From everything I watch and read about from all sources, that's the underlying message I get.
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Well, share them with us. Look, I just did some work on this. In the 350 or so largest counties in the country, 75 percent of all new jobs created since Trump was elected went to counties that voted for Clinton. The economy was strong between 2012 and 2016 and it didn’t matter. There is no way Biden is going to be perceived as “the devil we don’t know” — we DO know him, he was VP for 8 years and a long-standing moderate-to-liberal senator for ages. It’s candidates like Sanders and Warren who offer broad-reaching radical change points that are “the devil we don’t know” to the moderate, independent and undecided voters that the winner in 20 must get. Clinton won the popular vote by 3 mm, add that to all the third party votes and 75 mm people voted AGAINST Trump vs the 62 or whatever he got. That’s not a mandate for change nationally.

I really think you are letting your politics drag you away from the fundamental pragmatic issue at hand: if you believe Trump is a danger, you must replace him with someone -- nearly anyone -- else, and logically the best chance to unseat him comes from whomever has the best chance to win. Sanders isn’t that guy today say all the numbers and my guess is his poll numbers are rising now due to disaffected Warren voters who are abandoning her and top out unless Biden fucks up royally.

I’m not questioning your support at all, I’m questioning your logic. What data shows that Sanders has a better chance than Biden? I can’t find any. Ergo, unless you’d vote for Trump over Biden and Sanders over Trump I don’t see how you couldn’t be happy if Biden won if he has the best chance to unseat the serially-unfit motherfucker in the Oval Office now.

That said, if Sanders wins the nomination I’m voting for him in no uncertain terms.
 
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FogBlueInSanFran said:
Well, share them with us. Look, I just did some work on this. In the 350 or so largest counties in the country, 75 percent of all new jobs created since Trump was elected went to counties that voted for Clinton. The economy was strong between 2012 and 2016 and it didn’t matter. There is no way Biden is going to be perceived as “the devil we don’t know” — we DO know him, he was VP for 8 years and a long-standing moderate-to-liberal senator for ages. It’s candidates like Sanders and Warren who offer broad-reaching radical change points that are “the devil we don’t know” to the moderate, independent and undecided voters that the winner in 20 must get. Clinton won the popular vote by 3 mm, add that to all the third party votes and 75 mm people voted AGAINST Trump vs the 62 or whatever he got. That’s not a mandate for change nationally.

I really think you are letting your politics drag you away from the fundamental pragmatic issue at hand: anyone who doesn’t support Trump must replace him with anyone else, and logically the best chance to unseat him comes from whomever has the best chance to win. Sanders isn’t that guy today say all the numbers and my guess is his poll numbers rise now due to disaffected Warren voters who are abandoning her and top out unless Biden fucks up royally.

I’m not questioning your support, I’m questioning your logic. What data shows that Sanders has a better chance than Biden? I can’t find any. Ergo, unless you’d vote for Trump over Biden and Sanders over Trump I don’t see how you couldn’t be happy if Biden won if he has the best chance to unseat the serially-unfit motherfucker in the Oval Office now.

That said, if Sanders wins the nomination I’m voting for him in no uncertain terms.
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Interesting read. Funnily enough, I also want someone to oust #45, but for the 'right' reasons.

Ask yourself why Biden has failed in two other Pres runs. Outside of Obama's pick as VP, he was pretty much disliked by the Dem voter and, hence, why he's failed in his bids before. Even now, with his attachment to Obama his lead is falling.

And get this, Obama has been talking up Warren, just lately. That's the official 'nail in the coffin' for Biden that I mentioned some time ago. This will also aid his fall.

As far as I can tell Biden has two 'stand out' positions; to 'promote the middle class and raise the minimum wage' and 'fixing the ACA'.

Everything else, just aligns with Sanders' / typical Dem positions as a whole.

The minimum wage position is something that can be implemented as small as possible in order for corporations can keep their profits at arms length. At least Sanders has a living wage target set at $15ph. As for 'fixing the ACA', well, he's taking the centre Dem position of keeping the insurance racket alive. He may lessen the burden of payment for low income families, but it's still a burden compared to Sanders' releasing the same families from those type of payments.

Everything else is virtually about getting to the same-ish Dem position.

The major problem Biden has, that I see, is claiming actions as his primary idea that weren't his in the first place under Obama's tenure.

It already makes him look a liar.
 
Bigga said:
Interesting read. Funnily enough, I also want someone to oust #45, but for the 'right' reasons.

Ask yourself why Biden has failed in two other Pres runs. Outside of Obama's pick as VP, he was pretty much disliked by the Dem voter and, hence, why he's failed in his bids before. Even now, with his attachment to Obama his lead is falling.

And get this, Obama has been talking up Warren, just lately. That's the official 'nail in the coffin' for Biden that I mentioned some time ago. This will also aid his fall.

As far as I can tell Biden has two 'stand out' positions; to 'promote the middle class and raise the minimum wage' and 'fixing the ACA'.

Everything else, just aligns with Sanders' / typical Dem positions as a whole.

The minimum wage position is something that can be implemented as small as possible in order for corporations can keep their profits at arms length. At least Sanders has a living wage target set at $15ph. As for 'fixing the ACA', well, he's taking the centre Dem position of keeping the insurance racket alive. He may lessen the burden of payment for low income families, but it's still a burden compared to Sanders' releasing the same families from those type of payments.

Everything else is virtually about getting to the same-ish Dem position.

The major problem Biden has, that I see, is claiming actions as his primary idea that weren't his in the first place under Obama's tenure.

It already makes him look a liar.
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It really comes down to this: would you vote for Biden if he’s the nominee? If yes, then this is all moot. If no, then the finger well and should be pointed directly at you if Trump wins a second term. You have to power to make Sanders’ vision of America a reality if he wins the nomination. You have the power to get closer to it if Biden wins. You get Trump’s vision if not. So which is it?

Also Obama will endorse no one until the nominee has been determined, and then whomever that nominee is.
 
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FogBlueInSanFran said:
It really comes down to this: would you vote for Biden if he’s the nominee? If yes, then this is all moot. If no, then the finger well and should be pointed directly at you if Trump wins a second term. You have to power to make Sanders’ vision of America a reality if he wins the nomination. You have the power to get closer to it if Biden wins. You get Trump’s vision if not. So which is it?

Also Obama will endorse no one until the nominee has been determined, and then whomever that nominee is.
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Your point about the vote dilemma is exactly how it stands, I won't refute it and can't. They are the only choices ahead.

However, it's interesting that that you choose to say if you don't pick Biden and Orange wins, then it's "your fault".

Clinton was picked ahead of Sanders.

And lost.

That is written in the history books. The level of blame hasn't been cast to the Clinton voters, has it?

The problem with Biden is that he's much of the same offering from the Dem party and it's like they've not learned the lesson of last time. Anyone But Orange didn't work last time and it won't work this time, either. The people need a genuine choice and that is why the Sanders support has been growing and has been consistent in message delivering.

As for Obama, official endorsement is just that.

It doesn't mean he can't unofficially support his preferred candidate.
 
Bigga said:
And this is where he'd fail.

As much as I hate the fat fooked Orange One, he's riding on the crest of an economy that's working for now for the middle class and rich. The job numbers tell a tale that's not quite true, but they work.

I may be wrong, but I think people would rather stick with the devil they know, than one with nothing to give them as an option.

From everything I watch and read about from all sources, that's the underlying message I get.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. The job numbers are not quite as cut and dry as they first appear. They don't take into account that in many people have to take more than one job just to make ends meet; in some cases three or four jobs, especially in the gig economy.

The MSM have more power in this presidential race than any of the candidates policies, and when the media decide enough is enough Trump's re-election campaign will go south faster than a Mexican drug mule running for the border.
 
Trevor Morley's Tache said:
Absolutely. The job numbers are not quite as cut and dry as they first appear. They don't take into account that in many people have to take more than one job just to make ends meet; in some cases three or four jobs, especially in the gig economy.

The MSM have more power in this presidential race than any of the candidates policies, and when the media decide enough is enough Trump's re-election campaign will go south faster than a Mexican drug mule running for the border.
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What does MSM actually mean though? As in which information/broadcast sources
 
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