Dr Kelly

[stonerblue]

Bumped off.

 

[Fame Monster]

That’s fine, I can’t help but disrespect you for your hatred of Blair.

I don't hate him Blair; I'll defend him on the few things he got right but all things considered, he was an atrocious Prime Minister and is responsible for a lot of the mess the country (and the Labour party) finds itself in today. Again, on Monday, we saw an end to another one of his shameful legacies (PFI - even if he didn't invent it), ended by the Conservative Party which says it all.

 

[Ban-jani]

I don't hate him Blair; I'll defend him on the few things he got right but all things considered, he was an atrocious Prime Minister and is responsible for a lot of the mess the country (and the Labour party) finds itself in today. Again, on Monday, we saw an end to another one of his shameful legacies (PFI - even if he didn't invent it), ended by the Conservative Party which says it all.

Care to list the things that make you think he was atrocious?

What “mess” he left the country in?

And why the Labour Party was a “mess” too?

We’ve literally never had better living standards in this country in the time he was PM.

 

[Fame Monster]

Care to list the things that make you think he was atrocious?

What “mess” he left the country in?

And why the Labour Party was a “mess” too?

We’ve literally never had better living standards in this country in the time he was PM.

How long have you got?

To start, the war in Iraq was an expensive and humanitarian disaster. Saddam Hussein didn't have WMDs, and the removal of the security forces in Iraq led to a brutal civil war that brought about the rise of one of the most evil groups this world has seen - ISIS.

Idolising Thatcher.

Privatising parts of the NHS and saddling hospital trusts with huge debts to PFI consortia. Even the Conservative Party has abolished these scandalous contracts which saddled the country with enormous levels of national debt.

Same applies to the expensive academisation of schools.

Half-destroying grammar schools, thereby reducing social mobility for many children, despite half the front bench sending their kids to grammar schools.

Overspending when we should have been paying off the national debt, leading to us paying eye-watering interest rates when the crash occurred.

Increasing immigration to unprecedented levels that exceeded the number of houses built in this country every single year thereby causing a housing crisis that's left thousands on the streets (once it became clear that pre-crash budgets were unsustainable). Housing benefit subsequently skyrocketed (due to the explosion in rental costs) which is another budget drain. The only profit to be made was by buy-to-let landlords of which he is one and makes millions from it year-on-year while people have to wait 15 years to be moved into social housing.

His immigration policies also paved the way for Brexit (which he has part acknowledged) which could potentially be disastrous for the country if it doesn't get a good deal.

Locking people up for 42 days without charge.

Being complicit in torture.

And many many more that I've not mentioned.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

How long have you got?

To start, the war in Iraq was an expensive and humanitarian disaster. Saddam Hussein didn't have WMDs, and the removal of the security forces in Iraq led to a brutal civil war that brought about the rise of one of the most evil groups this world has seen - ISIS.

Idolising Thatcher.

Privatising parts of the NHS and saddling hospital trusts with huge debts to PFI consortia. Even the Conservative Party has abolished these scandalous contracts which saddled the country with enormous levels of national debt.

Same applies to the expensive academisation of schools.

Half-destroying grammar schools, thereby reducing social mobility for many children, despite half the front bench sending their kids to grammar schools.

Overspending when we should have been paying off the national debt, leading to us paying eye-watering interest rates when the crash occurred.

Increasing immigration to unprecedented levels that exceeded the number of houses built in this country every single year thereby causing a housing crisis that's left thousands on the streets (once it became clear that pre-crash budgets were unsustainable). Housing benefit subsequently skyrocketed (due to the explosion in rental costs) which is another budget drain. The only profit to be made was by buy-to-let landlords of which he is one and makes millions from it year-on-year while people have to wait 15 years to be moved into social housing.

His immigration policies also paved the way for Brexit (which he has part acknowledged) which could potentially be disastrous for the country if it doesn't get a good deal.

Locking people up for 42 days without a trial.

Being complicit in torture.

And many many more that I've not mentioned.

Yeah, but apart from that....

 

[johnnytapia]

How long have you got?

To start, the war in Iraq was an expensive and humanitarian disaster. Saddam Hussein didn't have WMDs, and the removal of the security forces in Iraq led to a brutal civil war that brought about the rise of one of the most evil groups this world has seen - ISIS.

Idolising Thatcher.

Privatising parts of the NHS and saddling hospital trusts with huge debts to PFI consortia. Even the Conservative Party has abolished these scandalous contracts which saddled the country with enormous levels of national debt.

Same applies to the expensive academisation of schools.

Half-destroying grammar schools, thereby reducing social mobility for many children, despite half the front bench sending their kids to grammar schools.

Overspending when we should have been paying off the national debt, leading to us paying eye-watering interest rates when the crash occurred.

Increasing immigration to unprecedented levels that exceeded the number of houses built in this country every single year thereby causing a housing crisis that's left thousands on the streets (once it became clear that pre-crash budgets were unsustainable). Housing benefit subsequently skyrocketed (due to the explosion in rental costs) which is another budget drain. The only profit to be made was by buy-to-let landlords of which he is one and makes millions from it year-on-year while people have to wait 15 years to be moved into social housing.

His immigration policies also paved the way for Brexit (which he has part acknowledged) which could potentially be disastrous for the country if it doesn't get a good deal.

Locking people up for 42 days without a trial.

Being complicit in torture.

And many many more that I've not mentioned.

Interviewer to Margaret Thatcher, “You achieved so much as Prime Minsister but if you had to choose one thing to define your legacy, what would it be?”

“Labour"

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Interviewer to Margaret Thatcher, “You achieved so much as Prime Minsister but if you had to choose one thing to define your legacy, what would it be?”

“Labour"

I think you missed the word “New” out there JT.

 

[SWP's back]

Can’t stand GG but I find it highly improbable that Dr Kelly wasn’t assisted in his death, in all likelihood against his wishes.

 

[Ban-jani]

How long have you got?

To start, the war in Iraq was an expensive and humanitarian disaster. Saddam Hussein didn't have WMDs, and the removal of the security forces in Iraq led to a brutal civil war that brought about the rise of one of the most evil groups this world has seen - ISIS.

Idolising Thatcher.

Privatising parts of the NHS and saddling hospital trusts with huge debts to PFI consortia. Even the Conservative Party has abolished these scandalous contracts which saddled the country with enormous levels of national debt.

Same applies to the expensive academisation of schools.

Half-destroying grammar schools, thereby reducing social mobility for many children, despite half the front bench sending their kids to grammar schools.

Overspending when we should have been paying off the national debt, leading to us paying eye-watering interest rates when the crash occurred.

Increasing immigration to unprecedented levels that exceeded the number of houses built in this country every single year thereby causing a housing crisis that's left thousands on the streets (once it became clear that pre-crash budgets were unsustainable). Housing benefit subsequently skyrocketed (due to the explosion in rental costs) which is another budget drain. The only profit to be made was by buy-to-let landlords of which he is one and makes millions from it year-on-year while people have to wait 15 years to be moved into social housing.

His immigration policies also paved the way for Brexit (which he has part acknowledged) which could potentially be disastrous for the country if it doesn't get a good deal.

Locking people up for 42 days without a trial.

Being complicit in torture.

And many many more that I've not mentioned.

There has never been a PM in history without major controversy, mistakes etc. Leaders of nations have to do things without the power of hindsight and usually get remembered for the bad, rather than the good.

It’s just the way it goes.

Blair is going to be remembered for what happened in Iraq, after we left Iraq, as opposed to the Balkans, Northern Ireland, Sierra Leone etc.

The naivety of your comment calling him “atrocious” is that the positives far outweigh the negatives with Blair.

To go to Iraq in the first place was the right thing to do, mistakes were made pulling out too early but he had little choice because the Americans were leaving regardless. He made a mistake making about the WMD’s when there was plenty of reasons to go without them.

Again he has regrets about the whole thing but not going in the first place, it was done with the best intentions and Saddam needed removing earlier than when he eventually was. As I say the mistakes were how we left it but Blair didn’t have sole control over this and it wasn’t clear what would happen next.

“Idolising Thatcher” is a throw away comment and anyone on this thread (I know you haven’t ) using Thatcher’s admiration for him as a negative for Blair is a fucking idiot as far as I’m concerned.

All levels of living standards were the greatest this country has seen under his leadership, no one has done it better in the modern era (arguably ever).

Immigration saw a boost in the economy, with many contributing rather than taking away. It’s important for you to realise that rather than just bringing up the housing crisis he didn’t start.

Holding him responsible for Brexit is what a right-wing idiot would say. He said the levels of immigration may have had some impact with certain people but it’s not why we left, we left due to a pack of lies about immigration and what Brexit would do for this country. Blaming Blair is like blaming Mancini every time we lose a game now.

We’ve also had 8 years of Tories (and Tory led Coalition) that haven’t seen a major reduction in immigration levels, in fact everyone in charge since as failed on their targets or not given targets (Miliband).

Where’s the policy he introduced to lock people up without trial?

How was he complicit in torture?

Who do you think has done a better job as PM?

Now here are the positives, which by the way we’re recorded before he’d finished.

Notice the positives for the NHS and schooling that you’d listed...

1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.

2. Low mortgage rates.

3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.

4. Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.

5. Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.

6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.

7. Young people achieving some of the best ever results at 14, 16, and 18.

8. Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.

9. Employment is at its highest level ever.

10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries.

11. 85,000 more nurses.

12. 32,000 more doctors.

13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards.

14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.

15. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.

16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.

17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.

18. Gift aid was worth £828 million to charities last year.

19. Restored city-wide government to London.

20. Record number of students in higher education.

21. Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.

22. Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.

23. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

24. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.

25. On course to exceed our Kyoto target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

26. Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.

27. Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.

28. All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.

29. A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.

30. 600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.

31. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.

32. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.

33. Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.

34. Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997.

35. Banned fox hunting.

36. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.

37. Free TV licences for over-75s.

38. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.

39. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.

40. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.

41. New Deal – helped over 1.8 million people into work.

42. Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.

43. Free eye test for over 60s.

44. More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.

45. Free entry to national museums and galleries.

46. Overseas aid budget more than doubled.

47. Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.

48. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent.

49. Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.

50. Free fruit for most four to six-year-olds at school.

 

[johnnytapia]

I think you missed the word “New” out there JT.

You're quite right.
Regarding Kelly, I've read several books about his death and things don't stack up. The most recent, "An Inconvenient Death" pulled apart the government / official lines in fine and devastating detail. There are several lacunae in the "spooks" recounts that make me highly suspicious. Not sure why, but something about his wife didn't ring true either. The family had his body exhumed last year and cremated. Strange action when there was a lot of questionable stuff around the autopsy. He was well and truly left high and dry by Gilligan who added far too much of his own interpretation to Kelly's words. But he was equally let down by his seniors and the House of Commons select committee.
I only really got into reading more around his death after researching a cover up in my own family - my great, great uncle was aboard HMS Ardent in WWII which was sunk amidst controversy. That story, and Kelly's appear in a few tomes about supposed governmental cover-ups.
https://www.historytoday.com/philip-weir/hms-glorious-history-controversy

Plus ca change and all that (and yes, I know the cedilla's missing!).