Dunkirk ( the film )

[Xiphos]

Vichy was though a southern based government the Germans occupied the north of France.

The biggest error on the french (and ourselves) side was not attacking the Siegfried line in 39 when the main German force was still in Poland and the old defences were in disrepair.
The phoney war where the germans sat on one side and the BEF and France with the largest land army in Europe waiting around giving the Germans the chance to march round the main allied force sitting idle and attack from the south, add that to us dithering about what to do in Scandinavia.

Yes the french surrendered and members of the them ruling government signed the amistice and stayed in government.

But as with WW1 incompitence from the British and French generals amd governments led to the circumstances.

We did a lot of things that went against our allies,(betraying the Greek partisans for one) sinking the french fleet at toulon was on the free french orders though

As a result of what we did to the French fleet the French airforce targeted the docks at Gibraltar and bombed it twice causing extensive damage

 

[urban genie]

As a result of what we did to the French fleet the French airforce targeted the docks at Gibraltar and bombed it twice causing extensive damage

Yeah it was the vichy france air force, mainly flying out of north africa mainly wasn't it? and only lasted a year.
Wasn't gibraltar fully evacuated bar the naval force by then though?


I am planning to go see the film this week some time, but I do think we overlook what happened in SEA and the complete fuck up we made of the Burmese situation and the surrender of malaysia and singapore and would love to see a film on all that done well.

 

[Xiphos]

Yeah it was the vichy france air force, mainly flying out of north africa mainly wasn't it? and only lasted a year.
Wasn't gibraltar fully evacuated bar the naval force by then though?


I am planning to go see the film this week some time, but I do think we overlook what happened in SEA and the complete fuck up we made of the Burmese situation and the surrender of malaysia and singapore and would love to see a film on all that done well.

Just reading up on the French Gibraltar raids, i was aware of them but thought it was one or two bombers dropping a few bombs causing no damage but that was not the case
On 24th Sept 1940 120 French aircraft based in Morocco attacked Gibraltar, later on the same day 64 bombers based in Oran attacked, the next day 83 bombers returned and caused the most damage, as a result of the 3 bombing raids substantial damage was caused to the docks, the mole, civilian housing and some ships were sunk or damaged, so it was not as inconsequential as i thought

 

[nmc]

And Churchill wanted a United States of Europe. I'd think it was a wind-up but I suspect you're serious.


So does Macron. Would it have been any different here? The Channel Islands experience suggests not.

Too right - read the Daily Express and Daily Mail's views of Hitler and the Nazi's before 1939.

 

[nmc]

No, that's correct, but Holland, Denmark, Belgium, Greece, Norway and others did not directly set up an
administration that openly and actively supported the aims of the third reich, France did.
Why?

You can't really blame all of France for the Vichy administration - clearly that lot were hand picked (right wing) collaborators and most were later hung for their crimes. The French Communist Party come out of WW2 with most credit in France and were the bedrock of the resistance movement.

 

[Ban-jani]

Thought it was sublime. You barely get time to breath and you really get the feeling of the panic and helplessness.

Unlike a lot of American war films there isn't exaggerated victories and over-celebrated patriotic dialogue.

There was the perfect amount of "British spirit" to the film to make it realistic and when you hear veterans saying it felt like they were there again, you can certainly give Christopher Nolan his plaudits.

The nerve-racking music and noises from the planes only added to the feeling of panic.

9/10

 

[Vic]

We did a lot of things that went against our allies,(betraying the Greek partisans for one) sinking the french fleet at toulon was on the free french orders though

Nowt to do with the free French. Germany broke the armistice and it was either let the Germans take the fleet or scuttle the ships. Vichy naval commander Darlan (happening to be in North Africa when the Germans "invaded") defected and ordered all the armed forces to support the free French but as the ships had no fuel there was no chance to sail them away to join the Allies. The order to scuttle was given by officers still technically under Vichy but it was to stop the Germans taking the ships.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

We sank their ships even before the Vichy government was formed, let alone embraced Nazi policy. Stop reading stuff back into situations.

Having agreed an armistice with the Germans, including the retention of the fleet, the French would actually have seemed it dishonourable to do what the British wanted. Of course we didn't trust the Germans, so gave the French various options, of which the last was that we'd have to take action to prevent the ships falling into German hands.

Maybe it was done "quite rightly". The British vice-admiral in command didn't think so. We weren't at war with France.

http://www.scottmanning.com/content/churchills-sinking-of-the-french-fleet-july-3-1940/

Of course we weren't at war with France, but they'd effectively surrendered on June 22, a fleet containing battleships
was a dangerous prospect, why on earth the British, at this stage, would be concerned about French 'Honour' at a time
like this makes no sense, being mindful of hurt feelings of a defeated ally, when it's assets could easily have been seized is nonsense.

 

[Vic]

Just reading up on the French Gibraltar raids, i was aware of them but thought it was one or two bombers dropping a few bombs causing no damage but that was not the case
On 24th Sept 1940 120 French aircraft based in Morocco attacked Gibraltar, later on the same day 64 bombers based in Oran attacked, the next day 83 bombers returned and caused the most damage, as a result of the 3 bombing raids substantial damage was caused to the docks, the mole, civilian housing and some ships were sunk or damaged, so it was not as inconsequential as i thought

I think there's a bit of a history there waiting for more research. We'd built a bit of a runway but the RAF was fighting the Battle of Britain, the Fleet Air Arm only had a couple of hundred planes, pilots were in short supply, so no fighters in Gibraltar in 1940. But 36 anti aircraft guns plus guns on ships so you'd have thought an air raid would have been better resisted.

It's a side line, but with all the fuss now about supporting Gibraltar it's odd that we didn't want the evacuated civilians in Britain. And perhaps surprising that their "Britishness" didn't seem to diminish over their treatment in the war. It seems the overall feeling was that it was better than risking being on Gib.

History of the evacuation "We Thank God and England" to download from
http://www.nationalarchives.gi/gna/NamesEvac.aspx

 

[Vic]

http://www.scottmanning.com/content/churchills-sinking-of-the-french-fleet-july-3-1940/

Of course we weren't at war with France, but they'd effectively surrendered on June 22, a fleet containing battleships
was a dangerous prospect, why on earth the British, at this stage, would be concerned about French 'Honour' at a time
like this makes no sense, being mindful of hurt feelings of a defeated ally, when it's assets could easily have been seized is nonsense.

Again you're very good with hindsight. Churchill ordered a war crime. Because Somerville (the vice Admiral in command) tried to negotiate surrender of the French fleet and the French commander instead called for reinforcements, the attack was probably just about legitimate by the time Somerville was ordered to get on with it.

But this was a few weeks after Churchill was advocating political union between Britain and France in order to bolster French resistance (not The Resistance). It turned the "defeated ally" into an enemy. Most of the French sailors would probably have wanted to get the fleet into British hands. Instead we killed 1300 of them.

The outcome was what Churchill wanted (partly to show America we were serious) but it probably cost Allied lives when we invaded French colonies in Africa because of the anti-British feeling because of it.

Somerville thought it "the biggest political blunder of modern times and will rouse the whole world against us…we all feel thoroughly ashamed…”
Maybe he was wrong, and it worked, but don't say alternatives were nonsense.