Evidence for religion

And as a psychologically trained man, do you think that an appropriate response to somebody sharing some pretty personal thoughts on a religious topic they've heavily debated in this community, is sarcastic mockery? What response did you envisage that would garner?

You know, just to get a reading on where you're coming from here?

I do apologise, i had you down as more tolerant....

I’m interested however, as a Physicists, you manage to wrestle with your return to Christian learning, as the original path was undoubtedly influenced from the way you viewed the world. Has becoming a father been an influence on this?

Again, apologies for being the cliche, just Sunday humour in my house, I’m genuinely interested in the leap!
 
I do apologise, i had you down as more tolerant....

I’m interested however, as a Physicists, you manage to wrestle with your return to Christian learning, as the original path was undoubtedly influenced from the way you viewed the world. Has becoming a father been an influence on this?

Again, apologies for being the cliche, just Sunday humour in my house, I’m genuinely interested in the leap!

I can't say for sure, I'd argue that probably the diagnosis of OCD several years ago might have turned that particular corner for me. Being diagnosed with a mental illness was for me, in intellectual terms, probably the best thing that has ever happened to me.

Imagine this. Imagine that somebody told you that your brain was "broken" for lack of a better term and that you can't trust all of the axioms that you've built and presumptions that you've made. Instead you have to go all the way back to first principles and re-examine everything you've ever thought about things and even when your brain rejects them emotionally, continue to think about them some more to find the innate logic inside of them then scrutinise the hell out of that. What I discovered was I had spent 30-odd years becoming a living breathing computer. I could tell you the formation of life on Earth with the relevant missing bits from the Big Bang to World War 2 but I had absolutely no understanding about the nature of humanity. Physics on its own is a weird subject because it's almost like facts without context. I used to say that the "why" doesn't matter but the "how" is what I'm interested in and from one perspective that's certainly still true, but on a wider scale it's now less interesting. I feel like I'm more scientifically educated than the average person but still no closer to having an understanding of what the nature of reality is. Let alone questions I don't plan to worry about for a few decades like what the nature of reality should be. I feel like I know less about reality and people than I did when I was a teenager and it's true that having kids and parenting them is something that has made that more important than it was. I don't care if my kids are going to be on the dole their whole life or President of the world, but I do care about whether they have a moral compass and have perspective on their place in the world.

When you're younger, especially in a world where humanistic scientific thought is so heavily valued, you think you've got the whole world figured out. Everything seems obvious because the way our knowledge base works mean that we test the shit out of something then in the future build upon that as a solid grounding. Expertise or specialisation is just the process of getting higher up on that knowledge pyramid and appreciating the context of the foundations below you. The world makes sense in a materialistic framework and we all enjoy the order coming from the world making sense. But the scientific method only tries to explain part of the world and leaves ethics, morality and behaviour to the Gods for lack of a better term.

Constant challenging of the nature of truth and morality has led me to the conclusion that the scientific method isn't enough to understand reality and instead we have to look at philosophy too. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Christian, I'm just someone who is no longer "not a Christian".
 
I've struggled with religion my whole life. I've read every major Holy Book to greater or lesser degrees, read religious and historical philosophers and intensely studied physics, astrophysics and genetic biology. And after a lifetime of that, I still don't feel like I'm any closer to "the truth" than when I started.
I was in my childhood a pretty keen religious student, then eventually an anti-theist, then softening into an agnostic and now back to Christian leaning. It's a long journey intellectually to undertake and there's absolutely no way that people who have been religious since their birth have wrestled with these problems. Religions are very much cult like to a wide portion of their population; unquestioning devotion to the Word. It took me legit 10 years of study to even contemplate the idea of a God, let alone accepting one which I still haven't done.

Here's some of the many thoughts that plague me:

1. Removing religion from this for a moment, if some interdimensional beings travelled to Earth several thousand years ago and tried to tell the local uneducated peasants of the Big Bang, multiverse theory, consciousness moving into new dimensions after death, etc, and those uneducated peasants of 4000 years ago wanted to write that down, what would that even look like? How could you explain quantum physics to a person who doesn't even understand how to count? Doesn't know what the Sun and the Moon are? I think about this when I read Genesis. I think about what the person who was writing it was trying to describe using their very simplistic understanding of the world and the Universe.

2. If religion is a cult like force for evil, why have billions of humans over thousands of years found joy, happiness and learned life lessons by reading the same stories as each other over and over? If nothing else then religious texts as a book of moral tales connects us to people from tens of generations ago. Tribal elders have always passed down wisdom to the young, maybe we just invented a whole system around this and called it faith? Also notice that I used the word wisdom rather than knowledge.

3. Throughout my life I've learned about what happens inside the smallest particles and the most massive stars; how the winds work, how the Sun shines and how the plants grow. Yet despite having all of this knowledge, it brought me no wisdom. I can tell you facts about loads of different stuff but I still can't even begin to explain the nature of evil, why time ticks or what constitutes living a good life. What is the point of being able to explain stellar-nucleosynthesis to someone if you then can't answer the question the most basic questions of "am I an evil man? How do I teach my children to be moral people?". Literally, what even is the point?

4. What is Homer Simpson's favourite beer?
This seems like a stupid question but I think about the implications of it more than pretty much any other single question. I used to believe in a materialistic view of the world whereby "truth" was a Boolean concept - things were either true or they were false or unproven (which were the same thing essentially). This one question challenged and redefined my understanding of the nature of truth. If I were to answer the question with "Duff beer", is that true or false? Well obviously everybody knows that that is true, that Homer likes Duff beer. But Homer doesn't exist, he's a figment of Matt Groening's imagination, he doesn't have a favourite beer because he's some lines on a piece of paper. But is saying then that "Homer doesn't have a favourite beer" what we recognise to be true? No. Very obviously no.
Nor is this a badly formed question; something I've considered a lot. Does Homer "exist" in SOME form of existence? Sure, he inspires people every day to some degree and that thing that is inspiring to people through their character and their fictional actions has to have a name. He has traits, a likeness, a character, catchphrases, etc. The Simpsons has greatly affected society, the way many people look at their family or society. It's certainly affected our media which in turn affects our lives greatly.
Now it's important to see that I'm not using Homer Simpson as a synonym for God or an argument of the existence, only to make a point that the boolean nature, the materialistic nature of truth cannot be correct because it doesn't explain what we see around us nor does it make accurate predictions to the world.
There has to be different levels of truth. And if there's different levels of truth, separating the materialistic from the philosophical truth, then the arguments against the existence of a God that are based in material thought fall down. And once they fall down then it becomes a whole different argument - a much more interesting one I've found.

5. Time is God?
I think of time a lot. People think time is a human invention like the clock or something but it isn't, it's a physical substance that exists in the Universe. You are passing through time now (or time is passing through you) at the rate of one second per second in the same way that you are moving through space at whatever speed you are moving. What we call "time" is probably better described as "change". Things change, even on a quantum level. They move, they heat up and get more energy, they collide, they release energy, they combine together to make new things. The Universe isn't a photo, it's a movie and the moving film reel is what we call time. Time is the ability for things to change from one state into another and we know we can alter that experience (for example through the famous "twin spaceship" experiment) then we understand it as a physical object with which we presume space is formed i.e. spacetime.
What we term the Big Bang is scientifically speaking, the exact moment that time started ticking. There is no ability to understand the "before the Big Bang" because time didn't exist (or it did exist but never ticked) so the question doesn't make sense. It's North of the North Pole again.
So what start the first tick? What created the notion of unchangeable nothingness into changing somethingness?
I used to argue that time needs no creator because if you say that God did it then the next question is that who created God? Then ultimately ending back up at the same place as "it doesn't need a creator". So if God doesn't need a creator then why does time need a creator? May as well cut out steps 2-10.
The only possibility that makes any sense is that something outside the laws of the Universe created it. And if we accept this, a far a leap as it is, then we do satisfactorily hit the "it doesn't need a creator" mark because we have no possible way of knowing what laws exist in the Universe outside the Universe so to speak and we can't presume that they are same as ours. So maybe time is God? The problem with this is that it means that time is a part of our Universe thus regulated by the rules of our Universe thus cannot fulfil the initial need for creation outside of this Universe. You cannot be a part of the Universe but not governed by its law, we know this to be impossible. If you're here, you obey the same rules as everyone else does, nobody has superpowers unfortunately.
Once you switch those terms around though, the question becomes significantly more interesting and unanswerable. Is time isn't God, is God time? Is time the way in which some creator being interacts with our Universe? It fits every religious description of God pretty well. I don't know, ask me in another ten years.

The only thing I know about "evidence for religion" is that it's a poorly formed question mixing two different presentations of what "truth" means to score a weird point. There's the same evidence for religion that there is that Homer likes Duff beer (apart from those thousand years of personal testimony). Nobody can provide you physical evidence that Homer doesn't like Duff because we don't have access to Homer. But on the other hand, anybody who has watched the Simpsons knows the "truth" of his favourite beer.

Summed up a lot of my thoughts too there, great post.
 
Listened to a fella being interviewed a few weeks ago.
He explained.
The bible was originally written in Hebrew.
When it was translated into Greek, they made a glaring mistake.
The word for 'young woman ' was wrongly translated as virgin.
Lots of young women are not virgins.
It was no different then and it will be no different in the future.
This is where the immaculate conception fails miserably.
 
I like your post @Damocles but to this point, i have a few questions:

"Throughout my life I've learned about what happens inside the smallest particles and the most massive stars; how the winds work, how the Sun shines and how the plants grow. Yet despite having all of this knowledge, it brought me no wisdom. I can tell you facts about loads of different stuff but I still can't even begin to explain the nature of evil, why time ticks or what constitutes living a good life. What is the point of being able to explain stellar-nucleosynthesis to someone if you then can't answer the question the most basic questions of "am I an evil man? How do I teach my children to be moral people?". Literally, what even is the point?"

1. Why did you think learning about the physical nature of how things work would or should lead you to an answer on a moral issue of good or evil - how do you even link the two in your mind they are unrelated? As an example, i know huge amounts about the restaurant / property business, spent years working and studying in it, it hasn't led me to any answers on whether i should be nice to my brother or not, but then it was never going to.

2. What has religion got to do with being evil or teaching children to be moral? As an atheist, i get angry that religion claims a monopoly on the rules about good and evil, particualrly as many religions and their texts support down right cuntish behviour. I can answer the question, "am I an evil man" about myself, no i am not, i have never killed anyone or even seriously hurt anyone and when i have hurt someone accidentally, i apologise = not evil (go me). I would wager given your persona on here, that if you looked deep within yourself you could answer that question about yourself, and i have no doubt that you would come up with a similar answer to me. Religion cannot answer that, only you can answer that.
 
1. Why did you think learning about the physical nature of how things work would or should lead you to an answer on a moral issue of good or evil - how do you even link the two in your mind they are unrelated? As an example, i know huge amounts about the restaurant / property business, spent years working and studying in it, it hasn't led me to any answers on whether i should be nice to my brother or not, but then it was never going to.

I didn't, it was just a rhetorical device to illustrate the difference between knowledge and wisdom. The point I was making is that even with years of scientific understanding behind me, this doesn't actually get me closer to any concept of what "the truth" is. It has created more unanswerable questions and even worse than this, the more I read, the more I could see argument that a God doesn't exist holds no logical or scientific merit. I dedicated a large portion of my thought processes towards a worldview that was ultimately self defeating and even though people were telling me that, I was too young and arrogant to accept it. My total dismissal of religion annoys me the most because it feels like time wasted; time where I could have had a fuller understanding of things, of people, of history, of philosophy, etc but I chose not to because I was rigorously hanging on to a materialistic worldview.

2. What has religion got to do with being evil or teaching children to be moral? As an atheist, i get angry that religion claims a monopoly on the rules about good and evil, particualrly as many religions and their texts support down right cuntish behviour. I can answer the question, "am I an evil man" about myself, no i am not, i have never killed anyone or even seriously hurt anyone and when i have hurt someone accidentally, i apologise = not evil (go me). I would wager given your persona on here, that if you looked deep within yourself you could answer that question about yourself, and i have no doubt that you would come up with a similar answer to me. Religion cannot answer that, only you can answer that.

Religion is essentially a morality system. It's not the only morality system but it's not a bad starting place for people asking themselves questions on the nature of morality as a whole. I always find religious anthropology a bit of a fascination subject - seeing how the culture of societies has been shaped by their morality system, and usually their morality system came from religion to some degree. One of the things that weighs religion more heavily than just a personal morality system has got to be its popularity. We've been "civilised" for all the connotations that word brings for around 12,000 years or so and across those 12,000 years the same tropes keep appearing in the variety of religions that spanned the world. You could argue, and I think this is a great point to be fair, that there's probably a root religion in the same way that all language descends from an ancient root language and that explains the commonalities between these moral systems. Or you could say that the subjective idea of morality seems to support the objective idea of morality because something in our genetics or the evolutionary knowledge we've passed down makes us more likely to form societies in specific ways that lead to us to successful outcomes.

The point here is that a totally subjective idea of morality doesn't really make any sense because your subjectivity was influenced by genetics, epigenetics, culture and the shared traits such as religion that it formed within. Religion doesn't have a monopoly on morality, that we can agree, but it does have an extremely large influence on what we consider to be moral or immoral in our cultures.

I'd love to be able to tell you that I'm not an evil man but I was to be as honest as I possibly could, I can't say that. I'm not even sure if I know what evil is. Put a gun in my hand and tell me to shoot an Arab man then I'm a racist murderer. Put me in a uniform and let the Government tell me to do it and I'm heroic. Contextual evil as a concept boggles the mind.
Then we have to consider direct vs indirect evil. I'm not as wealthy as I once was but I sometimes have a bit of spare cash lying around. I like going to the pub and getting drunk while watching football on a weekend, maybe even finishing off with a nice kebab. Is that evil? Why do I have to spend money on frivolities such as this when there's people in my town that I walk past once a day who are begging and have nothing? My weekend out is not a necessity and it's not crucial to my life but there are people who are homeless, addicts, fleeing from abuse, suffering from mental health issues, completely unable to build a life because they don't have that starter idea of "an address" with which to build their lives. Is sticking away 40 quid on my nonsense, "evil" in the face of that plight?
Then let's take that one step further then. There are people who are literally billionaires. My favourite way of comparing this is that if you earned one pound every second then it would only take 11 days for you to be a millionaire but would still take you 31 and a half years to be a billionaire. With that great mass of wealth stored around one person or families who have many billions, is that evil in light of the suffering of poverty that goes on within the world? It's no different in principle to my beer and kebab, only in scale.
How can anybody claim not to be evil when they walk past the suffering to spend disposable income on their own entertainment?
This isn't even considering the ideal of indirect evil on a societal level. Not to go all identity politics here but as a white English working class male then I have certain privileges and drawbacks inherent to my race, gender and class. No matter how hard I try, these unaware privileges and drawbacks which genuinely hurt people in society will be passed on to my children and their children. Is that moral?

It's too big and complicated a question. I can say that I try not to be directly evil to others though obviously fail on occasion either through action or inaction. There's no way of properly answering the question without something to compare yourself to. This is where religion serves a useful purpose.
 
The point here is that a totally subjective idea of morality doesn't really make any sense because your subjectivity was influenced by genetics, epigenetics, culture and the shared traits such as religion that it formed within. Religion doesn't have a monopoly on morality, that we can agree, but it does have an extremely large influence on what we consider to be moral or immoral in our cultures.
The longer I've been alive, the more I've thought the opposite. Obviously it's something of a symbiotic relationship, but I'd say religion is far more a product of the prevailing morals of a culture than the other way around. Morally speaking, I suspect I've got far more in common with your average UK Christian than that Christian has in common with an American Christian or a Ugandan Christian. In fact, one of the reasons for Christianity's success is in how adaptable it is to local contexts and existing cultures. Same with Islam.
 

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