evolution now to be taught in primary schools

[pominoz]

Good question. I guess I would say that I believe the meaning for us in the creation story isn't found in how we were created, but that - regardless of how and when - we were created, and there is a reason for our being here.

It's not so much a case of dismissing certain parts of the Bible while valuing others; it's more about seeing and testing the parts in the context of the wider narrative and who God says He is, which is most explicitly detailed in the person of Jesus (which is why I believe the gospels are the exception to valuing parts of the Bible over others).

In addition to this, there is experience that I have had of encountering God through the Holy Spirit, the legitimacy of which I appreciate I cannot convince you of.

how do you what the holy spirit is? what was it that convinced you that it was?
what makes the gospels more believable than any other chapters?
which has the coup de grace of the immaculate conception as its starting point.

Interestingly, the word 'virgin' can be translated in a couple of different ways from the Hebrew and Greek texts, to mean 'young woman of marriable age', or something to that affect, and not necessarily 'someone who hasn't had sex'. Another reason not to build faith like a wall that can have bricks poked ou of it.

But I digress.

The Holy Spirit is the spiritual form of God, promised by Jesus. People will claim that the spiritual realm is very unclear, but encounter with Holy Spirit is identified by the fruit of it (i.e. the product), which are all qualities humans can understand as Paul says in Galatians 5.

For example, I had a situation a four years ago where I wanted to marry my then girlfriend. I asked her dad for permission to marry her, and he said no, in no uncertain terms. The dilemma I had was that my love for my girlfriend was strong and good and I didn't think the reasons her dad gave for us not to marry were valid. But at the same time, I'm called to honour my father and mother, and so was my girlfriend.

There was no clear-cut path for me to take, so I prayed about it, and felt a sense of peace (one of the aforementioned fruits) about respecting her father's wishes, though I still didn't agree with it. Long story short, he saw that I respected his decision, soon changed his mind about me and we had a fantastic relationship until cancer took him very quickly just before Christmas last year. I shudder to think of the repercussions for our very small family if I'd have just gone ahead with it.

I am convinced that was the Holy Spirit guiding me, because of the fruit both instantly and four years down the line.

I wouldn't say the gospels are more or less believable, just more important and relevant as (if Jesus is the son of God), it is God speaking from a human perspective to humans in a way that the rest of the Bible doesn't.

Sorry, that lil story reminded me of this, don't know why.

 

[Ban-jani]

it is just as important that creationism is not taught as fact to young and impressionable minds,

by all means it can be used in a historical sense that it was once thought....etc

Well said, I think it's very important we keep mocking and undermining religion, any deterrent to make people reluctant to believe that nonsense.

 

[tonea2003]

Bollocks thread.

Evolution is real. That doesn't mean religion is not.

No it isn't, creationism now widely accepted as bollocks is now no longer taught as scientific fact/theory in primary schools

Major landmark

The question of religious realism is a completely different topic

If you are talking of the deity and you think it's real, I'm all ears

 

[Skashion]

How can someone possibly believe in an omnibenevolent omniscient omnipotent deity when they see all the evil and suffering in the world? It's so obviously nonsense. At least the Jews had it right. If God exists, he's a nasty vengeful ****.

 

[BWTAC]

How can someone possibly believe in an omnibenevolent omniscient omnipotent deity when they see all the evil and suffering in the world? It's so obviously nonsense. At least the Jews had it right. If God exists, he's a nasty vengeful ****.

Obviously that child is either an unbeliever or a sinner.

You go God.

 

[Rocket-footed kolarov]

Bollocks thread.

Evolution is real. That doesn't mean religion is not.

First point you are correct. Second point you fail miserably- Religion is a human concept, it is an invention of course it is real. However the divine truths behind all religions of the world are quite obviously bollocks. The only idea that remains is the vague concept. All creation myth stories and deities are fantastical stories, and that applies whether the beliefs are held by 1 individual or 1 billion people.

 

[Bodicoteblue]

Bollocks thread.

Evolution is real. That doesn't mean religion is not.

First point you are correct. Second point you fail miserably- Religion is a human concept, it is an invention of course it is real. However the divine truths behind all religions of the world are quite obviously bollocks. The only idea that remains is the vague concept. All creation myth stories and deities are fantastical stories, and that applies whether the beliefs are held by 1 individual or 1 billion people.

Religion is real because people believe it is , much in the way that when you were 4 years old , you believed in the tooth fairy, so that tooth fairy existed.
The concepts upon which religion is based do not exist ,or at least there is not a shred of irrefutable evidence to support them so it requires a great deal of irrationality to believe in it .
Irrationality should not be part of any school curriculum.

 

[Rocket-footed kolarov]

Bollocks thread.

Evolution is real. That doesn't mean religion is not.

First point you are correct. Second point you fail miserably- Religion is a human concept, it is an invention of course it is real. However the divine truths behind all religions of the world are quite obviously bollocks. The only idea that remains is the vague concept. All creation myth stories and deities are fantastical stories, and that applies whether the beliefs are held by 1 individual or 1 billion people.

Religion is real because people believe it is , much in the way that when you were 4 years old , you believed in the tooth fairy, so that tooth fairy existed.
The concepts upon which religion is based do not exist ,or at least there is not a shred of irrefutable evidence to support them so it requires a great deal of irrationality to believe in it .
Irrationality should not be part of any school curriculum.

Agreed.

 

[theres only one carlito]

Religion and it's followers? A bunch of people squabbling and preaching about who has the best imaginary friend. I'm sorry. Each to their own but IMO religion is the single biggest cause of division amongst the human race across the globe than even racism and wealth. It has brainwashed millions upon millions of individuals for 2000+ years. Even though the earth is 4.5 BILLION years old.

 

[mad4city]

Oddly, and I say this knowing that my grandfather, nearly 70 years ago was one -and I certainly won't be ... but, my daughter in law(ish) and my neighbour, two good friends and my cousin ( and that's 23 to 120ish if she they were all alive today) have all been/are doctors or nurses and they all agree, there are very, very few disbelievers on a deathbed.
And some of them, most vehemently, still are agnostic. So, that's probably the test.





Just thought I'd spout that whilst pissed when I shouldn't be.

 

[Rocket-footed kolarov]

Oddly, and I say this knowing that my grandfather, nearly 70 years ago was one -and I certainly won't be ... but, my daughter in law(ish) and my neighbour, two good friends and my cousin ( and that's 23 to 120ish if she they were all alive today) have all been/are doctors or nurses and they all agree, there are very, very few disbelievers on a deathbed.
And some of them, most vehemently, still are agnostic. So, that's probably the test.





Just thought I'd spout that whilst pissed when I shouldn't be.

Well that aren't that many confirmed atheists for a starters- yes, not disbelievers, or non-religious/ non-practising people, but actually people who have rationalised and articulated that "God" or "gods" are concept invented in the human mind and one which in all likelihood has never existed outside of human minds. Plus with the Grandad reference you are talking about an era with more religiosity, less criticism of religion, and a poorer standard of education (specifically in the scientific/biological field, but also generally). And it is hardly surprising that people who are not all there but still not ready to die are willing to throw in their chips to have a "chance" of an extended life in paradise and "accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior"- Yuck! Expels a bit of vomit from mouth

There are also plenty of tales of people giving up their disbelief or belief in another god which turn out to be outright lies spread by Christian fraudsters.

I am sure if I searched hard enough I could find stories of Christopher Hitchens renouncing atheism and welcoming Jesus round for a cup of tea and a biscuit. And there is also the tale of Anton LaVey founder of the church of Satan, making a deathbed confession:

http://www.examiner.com/article/anton-lavey-recanted-on-his-deathbed

 

[whp.blue]

Religion is just a mental crutch for the mentally weak

they need to believe in some mythical super being in order to give their pathetic lives meaning and the church just makes them pay for that privilege

 

[lazza]

Just a couple of thoughts...

On evolution: it is a fact, observed through (1) analysis of the fossil record which shows an almost complete progression of human evolution for 2.5 million years, (2) the presence of MRSA "superbug" which demonstrates evolution in action at this very moment.

On God: there is no way to disprove the presence or absence of a supreme deity, but it is not for the non-believer to prove anything, the onus is on the believer to provide proof. As Stephen Hawking has quite simply summarised: God is not necessary

 

[CTID1988]

Religion is just a mental crutch for the mentally weak

they need to believe in some mythical super being in order to give their pathetic lives meaning and the church just makes them pay for that privilege

Im an athiest, but thats a bit harsh mate!

 

[RP2]

Just a couple of thoughts...

On evolution: it is a fact, observed through (1) analysis of the fossil record which shows an almost complete progression of human evolution for 2.5 million years, (2) the presence of MRSA "superbug" which demonstrates evolution in action at this very moment.

On God: there is no way to disprove the presence or absence of a supreme deity, but it is not for the non-believer to prove anything, the onus is on the believer to provide proof. As Stephen Hawking has quite simply summarised: God is not necessary

On evolution: Correct

On God: Why not allow 'believers' to believe, and stop trying to smash what may be the only thing to keep them going? Some people, believe it or not, would crumble if there was ever any 'proof' that God DOESN'T exist.

 

[RP2]

Religion is just a mental crutch for the mentally weak

they need to believe in some mythical super being in order to give their pathetic lives meaning and the church just makes them pay for that privilege

What a huge fucking pile of shit you speak.

 

[whp.blue]

Religion is just a mental crutch for the mentally weak

they need to believe in some mythical super being in order to give their Sad lives meaning and the church just makes them pay for that privilege

Im an athiest, but thats a bit harsh mate!

point taken

perhaps Sad is a better choice of words as spending time praying and singing to a mythical being is at best sad but I stand by my point of a mental crutch and the fact the churches are just money making businesses

 

[mad4city]

Oddly, and I say this knowing that my grandfather, nearly 70 years ago was one -and I certainly won't be ... but, my daughter in law(ish) and my neighbour, two good friends and my cousin ( and that's 23 to 120ish if she they were all alive today) have all been/are doctors or nurses and they all agree, there are very, very few disbelievers on a deathbed.
And some of them, most vehemently, still are agnostic. So, that's probably the test.




Just thought I'd spout that whilst pissed when I shouldn't be.

Well that aren't that many confirmed atheists for a starters- yes, not disbelievers, or non-religious/ non-practising people, but actually people who have rationalised and articulated that "God" or "gods" are concept invented in the human mind and one which in all likelihood has never existed outside of human minds. Plus with the Grandad reference you are talking about an era with more religiosity, less criticism of religion, and a poorer standard of education (specifically in the scientific/biological field, but also generally). And it is hardly surprising that people who are not all there but still not ready to die are willing to throw in their chips to have a "chance" of an extended life in paradise and "accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior"- Yuck! Expels a bit of vomit from mouth

There are also plenty of tales of people giving up their disbelief or belief in another god which turn out to be outright lies spread by Christian fraudsters.

I am sure if I searched hard enough I could find stories of Christopher Hitchens renouncing atheism and welcoming Jesus round for a cup of tea and a biscuit. And there is also the tale of Anton LaVey founder of the church of Satan, making a deathbed confession:

http://www.examiner.com/article/anton-lavey-recanted-on-his-deathbed

You make a good point. Although, just to set the record straight, my grandfather refused the last rites as he was a non believer - and with good reason, maybe.
His father was a Presbyterian who married a Catholic. That man died screaming for a Presbyterian minister and my grandfather ran and got him one. He was shunned by the parish "for doing that to his own father" and was sent to family in Belfast to finish his schooling because it was made clear he wasn't welcome back to his own school. WWI broke out and he joined the Merchant Navy. He was injured and honourably discharged after his ship was torpedoed. He returned to Limerick and took part in the 1916 Rising and subsequent War of Independence. His mother was shot by the Black & Tans in a reprisal for a raid he took part in. By now he was a hero in the parish, by the way. He then fought in the Civil War and lost his own brother - who was on the other side. By every account, he was a bitter, contrary man in later life. Can't say I blame him.
The priest told him he'd never see the house of God if he didn't accept the last rites. "Down the cellar with the chambermaid will do me!" he replied.

Me? I'm far too much of a coward. I'll be copying the aethiest, WC Fields who was asked to explain why he was reading a Bible on his deathbed. "I'm looking for loopholes, boys! Looking for loopholes!"

 

[Rocket-footed kolarov]

Oddly, and I say this knowing that my grandfather, nearly 70 years ago was one -and I certainly won't be ... but, my daughter in law(ish) and my neighbour, two good friends and my cousin ( and that's 23 to 120ish if she they were all alive today) have all been/are doctors or nurses and they all agree, there are very, very few disbelievers on a deathbed.
And some of them, most vehemently, still are agnostic. So, that's probably the test.




Just thought I'd spout that whilst pissed when I shouldn't be.

Well that aren't that many confirmed atheists for a starters- yes, not disbelievers, or non-religious/ non-practising people, but actually people who have rationalised and articulated that "God" or "gods" are concept invented in the human mind and one which in all likelihood has never existed outside of human minds. Plus with the Grandad reference you are talking about an era with more religiosity, less criticism of religion, and a poorer standard of education (specifically in the scientific/biological field, but also generally). And it is hardly surprising that people who are not all there but still not ready to die are willing to throw in their chips to have a "chance" of an extended life in paradise and "accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior"- Yuck! Expels a bit of vomit from mouth

There are also plenty of tales of people giving up their disbelief or belief in another god which turn out to be outright lies spread by Christian fraudsters.

I am sure if I searched hard enough I could find stories of Christopher Hitchens renouncing atheism and welcoming Jesus round for a cup of tea and a biscuit. And there is also the tale of Anton LaVey founder of the church of Satan, making a deathbed confession:

http://www.examiner.com/article/anton-lavey-recanted-on-his-deathbed

You make a good point. Although, just to set the record straight, my grandfather refused the last rites as he was a non believer - and with good reason, maybe.
His father was a Presbyterian who married a Catholic. That man died screaming for a Presbyterian minister and my grandfather ran and got him one. He was shunned by the parish "for doing that to his own father" and was sent to family in Belfast to finish his schooling because it was made clear he wasn't welcome back to his own school. WWI broke out and he joined the Merchant Navy. He was injured and honourably discharged after his ship was torpedoed. He returned to Limerick and took part in the 1916 Rising and subsequent War of Independence. His mother was shot by the Black & Tans in a reprisal for a raid he took part in. By now he was a hero in the parish, by the way. He then fought in the Civil War and lost his own brother - who was on the other side. By every account, he was a bitter, contrary man in later life. Can't say I blame him.
The priest told him he'd never see the house of God if he didn't accept the last rites. "Down the cellar with the chambermaid will do me!" he replied.

Me? I'm far too much of a coward. I'll be copying the aethiest, WC Fields who was asked to explain why he was reading a Bible on his deathbed. "I'm looking for loopholes, boys! Looking for loopholes!"

Fair response.Nice story about your granddad seems he was a remarkable man. Fair enough to the last paragraph.

 

[Damocles]

how can someone claim that Evolution is not fact, and is a matter of faith?

Because they don't understand the term theory.

I don't think I know anything that gets quoted as often that bugs me more.

We have more empirical evidence for evolution than anything else save heliocentricity. It is fact in normal English.

Ok, thanks for the education SWP. I shall clarify what I was trying to say, as looking back on it I was not clear - for which I apologise.

Science cannot yet prove the complete extent of the evolutionary theory to be fact, because it has not measured by observation the evolution of species during the time period that it is commonly held to have occurred in.

Therefore, to hold that the evolutionary theory in its entirety is infallible fact requires, at this point in time, a degree of faith.

That does not mean that we shouldn't teach it, as I have previously expressed.