Forget Trump & Putin - China is the biggest threat to Europe.

[Lovebitesandeveryfing]

I lived and worked in China in the mid-eighties. On a regular basis, I was reminded of the humiliations they had suffered from the nineteenth-century imperial powers — especially Britain. To them it wasn't a long time ago. It was yesterday. The Chinese think long-term. What happened a hundred years ago is just a few days ago. They forget nothing. Nothing at all.
It took me a long time to grasp this fully.
In the medium to long term, China are the greatest threat. Russia is dwarfed by them. America will be. Europe is and will remain far too divided to be a credible geopolitical entity on the world stage. There's no question whatsoever in my mind about it.
They do not see themselves as second to anyone. When you've got over a billion people, huge natural resources, and investments all over the globe, not only the U.S., Europe but especially the continent of Africa, where China is now the single most important foreign power, economically, well, that's fair enough, actually. The nineteenth century was “the British century”. The twentieth was “the American century”. The Chinese plan very firmly for the twentieth-first century to be the Chinese century. And their huge soft power is increasingly backed up by hard power, in the form of a military, and especially navy, which is growing exponentially.

Of course, in the short term, Russia is a grave danger. This will be controversial, but to a lesser extent — so is Trump's America.

 

[Alvin-blue-qhd]

If you're concerned about the threat to democracy in Europe - then Russia's invasion of Ukraine - is 100% the biggest threat to a free Europe.

America is the biggest threat to democracy in Europe. They are the master.

 

[Alvin-blue-qhd]

A useful idiot then.

I should support sanctions against Russia, help the U.S. take down Russia, and then let NATO keep expanding eastward until China is surrounded by NATO? A useful genius.

 

[AliBobbyJ]

I lived and worked in China in the mid-eighties. On a regular basis, I was reminded of the humiliations they had suffered from the nineteenth-century imperial powers — especially Britain. To them it wasn't a long time ago. It was yesterday. The Chinese think long-term. What happened a hundred years ago is just a few days ago. They forget nothing. Nothing at all.
It took me a long time to grasp this fully.
In the medium to long term, China are the greatest threat. Russia is dwarfed by them. America will be. Europe is and will remain far too divided to be a credible geopolitical entity on the world stage. There's no question whatsoever in my mind about it.
They do not see themselves as second to anyone. When you've got over a billion people, huge natural resources, and investments all over the globe, not only the U.S., Europe but especially the continent of Africa, where China is now the single most important foreign power, economically, well, that's fair enough, actually. The nineteenth century was “the British century”. The twentieth was “the American century”. The Chinese plan very firmly for the twentieth-first century to be the Chinese century. And their huge soft power is increasingly backed up by hard power, in the form of a military, and especially navy, which is growing exponentially.

Of course, in the short term, Russia is a grave danger. This will be controversial, but to a lesser extent — so is Trump's America.

Yes, any people that called themselves "the Middle Kingdom" and "Celestial Empire" is always going to think about world domination. They could have achieved it before the Europeans if Zheng He's voyages hadn't been canceled. Even by the time the Europeans were starting to boss their way into China there was that far-sighted bloke Napoleon saying "China is a sleeping giant: when it wakes it will astonish the world."

I recall having this conversation once before with Bluemoon's resident Chinese poster (Alvin-blue-qhd, if you're reading) who I think rather downplayed China's threat to the West. I'm sorry I've forgotten exactly what you said but instead I can offer a personal memory from my brief time in Hong Kong where I had a delightful fling with a young (so was I) Chinese woman. She was well versed in English culture and once said that China would eventually take revenge for the humiliation of the Opium Wars with the words "Just you wait, Henry Higgins, just you wait." I don't know what "Eliza" is in Chinese but i think she was right.

 

[halfcenturyup]

A useful idiot then.

Another very western concept.

 

[halfcenturyup]

America is the biggest threat to democracy in Europe. They are the master.

Personally, I think Europeans are the biggest threat to democracy in Europe.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

Personally, I think Europeans are the biggest threat to democracy in Europe.

Indifference is one of the biggest threats to democracy. People always realise too late.

 

[halfcenturyup]

Indifference is one of the biggest threats to democracy. People always realise too late.

Then I suppose the question becomes what breeds that indifference?

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

Then I suppose the question becomes what breeds that indifference?

I think it's a number of factors, but I think one of the biggest drivers is that people don't realise just how privileged they are to even have a chance to vote, and they don't realise how important that vote is. Too often I've heard "My vote doesn't matter", or "They'r all the f*cking same".

 

[Alvin-blue-qhd]

Yes, any people that called themselves "the Middle Kingdom" and "Celestial Empire" is always going to think about world domination. They could have achieved it before the Europeans if Zheng He's voyages hadn't been canceled. Even by the time the Europeans were starting to boss their way into China there was that far-sighted bloke Napoleon saying "China is a sleeping giant: when it wakes it will astonish the world."

I recall having this conversation once before with Bluemoon's resident Chinese poster (Alvin-blue-qhd, if you're reading) who I think rather downplayed China's threat to the West. I'm sorry I've forgotten exactly what you said but instead I can offer a personal memory from my brief time in Hong Kong where I had a delightful fling with a young (so was I) Chinese woman. She was well versed in English culture and once said that China would eventually take revenge for the humiliation of the Opium Wars with the words "Just you wait, Henry Higgins, just you wait." I don't know what "Eliza" is in Chinese but i think she was right.

In my previous reply to you, I mentioned that directly translating the Chinese term "百年国耻" (century of national humiliation) as "humiliation" is inaccurate. Similarly, translating "中国" as "Middle Kingdom" and then concluding that the Chinese seek to dominate the world is an exaggerated narrative. While the character "中" can indeed mean "middle," it also carries a deeper cultural connotation of moderation, balance, and avoiding extremes—a principle deeply rooted in Chinese philosophy.

 

[Lovebitesandeveryfing]

I think it's a number of factors, but I think one of the biggest drivers is that people don't realise just how privileged they are to even have a chance to vote, and they don't realise how important that vote is. Too often I've heard "My vote doesn't matter", or "They'r all the f*cking same".

It does fucking matter, and they're not the fucking same.
I always say that it was a great privilege to live in two totalitarian countries. An education that I needed. China, when I lived in it, was a politically totalitarian country, and Japan was what I would call a socially totalitarian country. That may have changed in both places, but I sort of have my doubts. I don't want to offend any Chinese or Japanese people who are on this forum, but that was my conclusion. (The word “totalitarian” in relation to Japan may shock, but as I lived and observed it, the social pressure to conform in Japan was, if anything, greater than in China). For one reason or another, I was also surrounded by colleagues who were mainly American, with a smattering of Canadians. I realised firmly that I wasn't like them either, I didn't have the same assumptions, politically, socially, and above all, religiously. (Is there a more deeply religious nation on earth than the U.S.A.? Perhaps, ironically, Iran… Each considers the other the Great Satan).
I've travelled on every continent, and I've thoroughly enjoyed it. I've been very lucky to have that privilege. I wouldn't change a thing, I would not regret a thing. But I am deeply, and firmly, a European. This is a terrific continent to live on. It is endlessly variable. Go from the Lofoten Islands within the Arctic circle to the Kyklades in the Aegean, go from Bergen in Norway or Reykjavik in Iceland down to Seville or Lisbon or Athens or Palermo. As a continent, Europe is a fiction, but a wonderful one.
The drift to the far right within Europe is the most worrying tendency in my lifetime.
It does matter. I go to vote with the depressing sense that I'm not being offered real options. That I vote for a person and a party that I don't particularly like or agree with, to keep out another person and party that I intensely dislike and disagree with. That's been the case for some twenty years. The young feel this very keenly, when I talk about it with them (I teach). I understand them, but I tell them “Please go and do it. Somebody may come and take that vote, and the right to demonstrate on the streets, away from you. It happens — historically, it has happened.”

 

[AliBobbyJ]

In my previous reply to you, I mentioned that directly translating the Chinese term "百年国耻" (century of national humiliation) as "humiliation" is inaccurate. Similarly, translating "中国" as "Middle Kingdom" and then concluding that the Chinese seek to dominate the world is an exaggerated narrative. While the character "中" can indeed mean "middle," it also carries a deeper cultural connotation of moderation, balance, and avoiding extremes—a principle deeply rooted in Chinese philosophy.

Thank you for your scholarly reply (again.) But I believe it misses my main point.

Although I don't read Chinese I have read Chinese sources in translation and they show a great deal of impotent rage among 19th century Chinese officials who had to watch their country humbled by the superior technology of the Western Powers, "barbarians" in their eyes. I think you must know the Q'ing emperor's dismissive reply to George III when Lord Macartney arrived in 1793 seeking British trade with China. That letter plainly stated China's sense of its own superiority at that time and it was only 50 years later that British warships were bombarding Chinese ports. Soon afterwards British merchants were building their Victorian villas in Shanghai and strolling around parks reserved for whites by signs that said "Dogs and Chinese not permitted." The long memory of such humiliations was still there in 2000 when the Olympic Games were given to Sydney not Beijing and I believe it's still there today as a driving force in China's foreign policy.

You can ask the journalists of Hong Kong who are in prison for defending freedom of speech how they feel about their authoritarian regime's "moderation." Or ask the people of Taiwan looking anxiously at what's threatening them from across the Straits - "Just you wait, Henry Higgins ..."

 

[Alvin-blue-qhd]

Thank you for your scholarly reply (again.) But I believe it misses my main point.

Although I don't read Chinese I have read Chinese sources in translation and they show a great deal of impotent rage among 19th century Chinese officials who had to watch their country humbled by the superior technology of the Western Powers, "barbarians" in their eyes. I think you must know the Q'ing emperor's dismissive reply to George III when Lord Macartney arrived in 1793 seeking British trade with China. That letter plainly stated China's sense of its own superiority at that time and it was only 50 years later that British warships were bombarding Chinese ports. Soon afterwards British merchants were building their Victorian villas in Shanghai and strolling around parks reserved for whites by signs that said "Dogs and Chinese not permitted." The long memory of such humiliations was still there in 2000 when the Olympic Games were given to Sydney not Beijing and I believe it's still there today as a driving force in China's foreign policy.

You can ask the journalists of Hong Kong who are in prison for defending freedom of speech how they feel about their authoritarian regime's "moderation." Or ask the people of Taiwan looking anxiously at what's threatening them from across the Straits - "Just you wait, Henry Higgins ..."

I don’t understand why you insist on the viewpoint that "we were humiliated, so we want revenge." This contradicts my personal experience as a native Chinese who has lived in China for decades.

 

[AliBobbyJ]

I don’t understand why you insist on the viewpoint that "we were humiliated, so we want revenge." This contradicts my personal experience as a native Chinese who has lived in China for decades.

Those feelings are in the Chinese sources I've read in translation. I'm glad you don't feel them. I hope your government is just as magnanimous.

 

[Alvin-blue-qhd]

Those feelings are in the Chinese sources I've read in translation. I'm glad you don't feel them. I hope your government is just as magnanimous.

The government is more moderate than the general public. This is common sense, and it's why we're willing to respect the government—because we know they tend to be more rational and measured. I understand this might be difficult for people in the West to accept.

 

[AliBobbyJ]

What a strange mix of creatures we humans are with all our differing views on things; a click or two away from this page are people who think Brexit was a good idea, some who like Donald Trump, some who don't like cricket and some who think Quinn said "Stupendous!"

 

[Alvin-blue-qhd]

What a strange mix of creatures we humans are with all our differing views on things; a click or two away from this page are people who think Brexit was a good idea, some who like Donald Trump, some who don't like cricket and some who think Quinn said "Stupendous!"

I once had an conversation with an American in another forum. He couldn't read Chinese, though his parents were from hongkong - yet his views on China were essentially the standard Western perspective. When I wrote a long paragraph trying to explain things to him, he responded: "Every word you're saying, my parents have told me before. You've been brainwashed just like them."
That is how different the world can be, even among people who live in the same house, parents and children.

 

[Grassland Blue]

The government is more moderate than the general public. This is common sense, and it's why we're willing to respect the government—because we know they tend to be more rational and measured. I understand this might be difficult for people in the West to accept.

I am English, born in Gorton, raised in Mossley. I have spent more than 3 years out of my last 25 in China, most of that time in the north of the country.
The people I have met have been so welcoming that I have often felt humbled to the point of embarrassment by them. They can't do enough for me.
After having been exposed to so much anti China propaganda in my youth, it was with a mixture of trepidation and curiosity that I made my first few visits to the country, the first time being in January 2000. I thought, surely no country can be guilty of all that which it has been accused. You know what? I am going to find out!
At that time there was some petty crime, extreme poverty and homelessness. Many people, (most people?) had a hard life back then.
Over the years things have improved to the point where homelessness has all but been eradicated, I feel 100% safe there at any time because there is no crime and some of the tech leaves the western world behind in a cloud of dust.
I only wish that I could take a group of people who are staunch anti China to see for themselves the brilliant reality.
If anyone would care to join me on a visit........

 

[Lovebitesandeveryfing]

I am English, born in Gorton, raised in Mossley. I have spent more than 3 years out of my last 25 in China, most of that time in the north of the country.
The people I have met have been so welcoming that I have often felt humbled to the point of embarrassment by them. They can't do enough for me.
After having been exposed to so much anti China propaganda in my youth, it was with a mixture of trepidation and curiosity that I made my first few visits to the country, the first time being in January 2000. I thought, surely no country can be guilty of all that which it has been accused. You know what? I am going to find out!
At that time there was some petty crime, extreme poverty and homelessness. Many people, (most people?) had a hard life back then.
Over the years things have improved to the point where homelessness has all but been eradicated, I feel 100% safe there at any time because there is no crime and some of the tech leaves the western world behind in a cloud of dust.
I only wish that I could take a group of people who are staunch anti China to see for themselves the brilliant reality.
If anyone would care to join me on a visit........

Incidentally, in view of my earlier posts I want to make it crystal clear that I am not “anti-China”, still less “anti-the-Chinese”.
I've been in China more recently, ten years or so ago: in Shanghai (which is an amazing city, truly a “world city”), then from there to Chengdu, from there to Kunming, and back to Shanghai. A very good trip, and I did not see or encounter the slightest sign of hostility to me as a foreigner (which is slightly different to my earlier experience in the mid-eighties, but I also want to emphasise that I met some very friendly — and indeed brave — Chinese, even in that period, when the country was emerging from the baleful Gang-of-Four era, and paranoia even between the Chinese themselves was definitely present). China has changed a lot. There are many good Chinese citizens, and actually I think they don't particularly notice foreigners very much, because they're too busy just getting on with their lives. Like the rest of us, everywhere.
The word “threat” in the title is perhaps an unfortunate one. As is, perhaps, the word “vengeance” elsewhere.

You know, there are people who live south of Watford Gap who are convinced that all mancs are yokels…

 

[r.soleofsalford]

America is the biggest threat to democracy in Europe. They are the master.

America is the biggest threat to America