Gabriel Jesus

[Clercqs]

I can't imagine there's going to be any accuracy whatsoever in comparing "unsuccessful touch" stats. If you go from one match report to another they can't even agree on the possession stats, the shots on target, fouls etc, so for me "unsuccessful touch" stats probably involve people making up a number that sounds reasonable. And it's subjective anyway. The person counting unsuccessful touches in Brazil (I find it hard to believe someone is actually doing that) will be different to the dude doing it over here. In the same way that referees show inconsistency from one to another in the face of subjectivity, so will these touch counters.

Of course I guess there would be a few differences but its the same company and they are going by Optas statistics which are the leading statistics company in the world (re football). They also watch evey game many times and can change the stats from the game for many hours after it finished to get every touch right (yes they do count every single touch a player makes in they game and where they made it). So I'd say its fairly accurate.

 

[manygoose]

I don't think the "bobbly pitches" is a particularly compelling explanation on this, because the whole league played on the same pitches.

good thing it wasn't offered as an explanation for his poor first touch statistic. I said it was something worth considering going forwards, on him improving his first touch.

There could be many explanations for him to have a poor statistic relative to his counterparts.

Is it the type of service he gets?
Is he always playing in tight spaces?
Was this his first season on these pitches, facing opponents and styles of football for the first time?
Do strikers always have high unsuccessful first touches?
Or is he just not as good as everyone thinks he is?

There's no reason to critisise anyone on this forum for having an opinion on a player based on youtube highlight reels, when they play in different leagues and different timezones.

You could watch full 90 minute matches and still have a dumbass opinion.

Let's accept this is a fan forum, not a medium of dialogue for football experts. Let people enjoy things.

 

[Shaelumstash]

I can't imagine there's going to be any accuracy whatsoever in comparing "unsuccessful touch" stats. If you go from one match report to another they can't even agree on the possession stats, the shots on target, fouls etc, so for me "unsuccessful touch" stats probably involve people making up a number that sounds reasonable. And it's subjective anyway. The person counting unsuccessful touches in Brazil (I find it hard to believe someone is actually doing that) will be different to the dude doing it over here. In the same way that referees show inconsistency from one to another in the face of subjectivity, so will these touch counters.

That's a fair point mate. But even if there is some inaccuracy, surely you appreciate there's still some merit in it? If Sky say our average possession for the season is 65% and the BBC say it's 60%, you can still make a reasonable assumption that we are a possession based team.

I'd be very surprised if Gabriel Jesus was somehow "unlucky" and had a load of incompetent statisticians marking his performance every time he played. The inaccuracies were probably at a similar level for everyone.

But even allowing for the inaccuracies, let's say he got unlucky. Let's say he didn't have the second most miscontrols in the entire league. Let's say he was 6th, or even 10th or whatever. He's still got an awful lot of miscontrols in comparison to our top players.

As the poster earlier pointed out, Silva had 20 miscontrols in a similar period the Jesus had 108! That can't be explained away by inconsistent data collection - there's something more to it.

 

[HalfwayUpTheKippax]

Same here. Imagine Bravo in goals with Ota, Kompany and Stones infront of him (playing reasonably tight like Chelsea's back three). Fernandihno andToure infront. Next you'd have Silva and KDB in the hole with Aguero infront and Sterling + Jesus on each wing. So much quality on the pitch.

Imagine that with Joe Hart instead of Bravo ;-)

 

[Otamendi's Beard]

Forwards will always have the most unsuccessful touches due to the pressure they're under when they receive the ball.

It's also not necessarily him having a 'bad' touch, it could be that he tries to be positive when he receives it, rather than passing backwards every time. I'm sure that would be coached out of him though.

I think the comparison with Kelechi is pretty fair and it'll only get better.

 

[Shaelumstash]

good thing it wasn't offered as an explanation for his poor first touch statistic. I said it was something worth considering going forwards, on him improving his first touch.

There could be many explanations for him to have a poor statistic relative to his counterparts.

Is it the type of service he gets?
Is he always playing in tight spaces?
Was this his first season on these pitches, facing opponents and styles of football for the first time?
Do strikers always have high unsuccessful first touches?
Or is he just not as good as everyone thinks he is?

There's no reason to critisise anyone on this forum for having an opinion on a player based on youtube highlight reels, when they play in different leagues and different timezones.

You could watch full 90 minute matches and still have a dumbass opinion.

Let's accept this is a fan forum, not a medium of dialogue for football experts. Let people enjoy things.

People are more than welcome to have an opinion on a player based on a highlights reel. But they'll have to accept it's not a particularly well informed opinion.

There is no debate about whether he is an exciting talent, no debate whether he is fast, whether he's got good skills and is a good finisher, everyone is agreed on that.

The debate was about whether he was prone to the odd heavy touch. From what I've seen of him in the 3 or 4 full games I've watched, he is prone to the odd heavy touch and over running the ball. It turns out the statistics that analysed every single game he played in the league last year show that he had the 2nd most miscontrols in the entire league. So that backs up my judgement from watching him play.

Other posters used his career highlights reel as some kind of evidence that he doesn't have any bad touches or miscontrols. I'm sorry, but I don't accept that as relevant evidence when debating this specific point. Highlights videos don't tend to show mistakes - that's why they're called highlights.

So, by all means, have an opinion on the player based solely on his Youtube career highlights, get really excited if that's what you want to do. But just don't be disappointed and get on his back if he doesn't live up to the unrealistic expectations you put on him. Give the kid a bit of time to develop.

 

[dobingsdobber]

Have they banned the snood ?

How about if he plays in one of Wenger's giant bubble-coats with hot water bottles strapped to each leg

 

[Shaelumstash]

Forwards will always have the most unsuccessful touches due to the pressure they're under when they receive the ball.

It's also not necessarily him having a 'bad' touch, it could be that he tries to be positive when he receives it, rather than passing backwards every time. I'm sure that would be coached out of him though.

I think the comparison with Kelechi is pretty fair and it'll only get better.

That's a fair and sensible post mate.

It's me that's brought up that he is prone to the odd heavy touch - that's based on watching him play. I never said he had a "bad touch". That was something made up by a couple of posters who were trying to strawman.

He's got a very good touch in the main, he's just prone to the odd heavy one, similar to Kelechi as you say. It's completely normal that a 19 year old isn't the finished article, there's lots of improvement left in him - that's what's so exciting about him.

 

[YaYa's Left Peg]

It was an indirect dig mate, whether you intended it to be or not.

I said he was prone to the odd bad touch, someone disagreed and posted his career highlights video and you responded "Hahaha the perfect response". I don't think it was the perfect response at all. In fact, I don't think it moved the debate along whatsoever. It actually took it backwards.

We've all seen the highlights videos and we're all super excited by them. I've watched him play a few times and that's a better way to judge a player than his career highlights video imo. I noticed he has the odd heavy touch and overruns the ball sometimes.

Cue the resident Bluemoon loud mouths come in trying to shoot it down with no other evidence than a highlights video and a misguided sense of expertise saying he never mis-controls it. Turns out he had the second most mis-controls in the entire Brazilian league.

Again, I'm really excited to see the kid play, I hope he fulfils his incredible potential while at City, I just hope fans get behind him and encourage him if he makes the odd mistake in his development. I'm sure he will go on to be one of the very best, but he needs time to learn, develop and make mistakes.

Ok mate you win.

 

[AshLunn92]

Does anyone know if it's possible for him to be in the team tonight or not?

 

[manygoose]

People are more than welcome to have an opinion on a player based on a highlights reel. But they'll have to accept it's not a particularly well informed opinion.

There is no debate about whether he is an exciting talent, no debate whether he is fast, whether he's got good skills and is a good finisher, everyone is agreed on that.

The debate was about whether he was prone to the odd heavy touch. From what I've seen of him in the 3 or 4 full games I've watched, he is prone to the odd heavy touch and over running the ball. It turns out the statistics that analysed every single game he played in the league last year show that he had the 2nd most miscontrols in the entire league. So that backs up my judgement from watching him play.

Other posters used his career highlights reel as some kind of evidence that he doesn't have any bad touches or miscontrols. I'm sorry, but I don't accept that as relevant evidence when debating this specific point. Highlights videos don't tend to show mistakes - that's why they're called highlights.

So, by all means, have an opinion on the player based solely on his Youtube career highlights, get really excited if that's what you want to do. But just don't be disappointed and get on his back if he doesn't live up to the unrealistic expectations you put on him. Give the kid a bit of time to develop.

you say he's prone to the odd bad touch, and the statistics back you up. what's the debate here? are we arguing that some numbers are bigger than others and smaller than others?

if you've watched 4 games and feel you are more informed than others who've watched only youtube highlights then at least offer up some intelligent debate.

in your opinion why does he have a bad touch? explain to the extent that 4 games allows you to, rather than remind us that 108 is in fact bigger than 20 or whatever

 

[Tricky_Trev]

That's a fair point mate. But even if there is some inaccuracy, surely you appreciate there's still some merit in it? If Sky say our average possession for the season is 65% and the BBC say it's 60%, you can still make a reasonable assumption that we are a possession based team.

I'd be very surprised if Gabriel Jesus was somehow "unlucky" and had a load of incompetent statisticians marking his performance every time he played. The inaccuracies were probably at a similar level for everyone.

But even allowing for the inaccuracies, let's say he got unlucky. Let's say he didn't have the second most miscontrols in the entire league. Let's say he was 6th, or even 10th or whatever. He's still got an awful lot of miscontrols in comparison to our top players.

As the poster earlier pointed out, Silva had 20 miscontrols in a similar period the Jesus had 108! That can't be explained away by inconsistent data collection - there's something more to it.

Then I'd like to know what an unsuccessful touch actually is. Is it only looking at first touches, or EVERY touch? Someone like Yaya or Silva will receive the ball and pass it on 1 or 2 touches later. In contrast, from what I've seen, Jesus will go on a run with it and take well in excess of 10 touches maybe more. If he dribbles with the ball and he gets crowded out, does that count as an unsuccessful touch, an unsuccessful dribble, or both? He plays a more complicated game than Silva and Yaya. Jesus is not so focused on ball-retention, but more on being directly dangerous. With such a style, I think giving the ball away more, or not always having it under perfect control, is normal. Also, it's much more difficult to get your touch spot on when your being man-handled by defenders. Those in more advanced positions have to contend with this far more than Yaya or Silva, who have the relative comfort of deep midfield space to mess about in. That would be my take on it.

 

[bellsouth]

Does anyone know if it's possible for him to be in the team tonight or not?

Not sure he's actually registered yet, is he?

 

[Clercqs]

Then I'd like to know what an unsuccessful touch actually is. Is it only looking at first touches, or EVERY touch? Someone like Yaya or Silva will receive the ball and pass it on 1 or 2 touches later. In contrast, from what I've seen, Jesus will go on a run with it and take well in excess of 10 touches maybe more. If he dribbles with the ball and he gets crowded out, does that count as an unsuccessful touch, an unsuccessful dribble, or both? He plays a more complicated game than Silva and Yaya. Jesus is not so focused on ball-retention, but more on being directly dangerous. With such a style, I think giving the ball away more, or not always having it under perfect control, is normal. Also, it's much more difficult to get your touch spot on when your being man-handled by defenders. Those in more advanced positions have to contend with this far more than Yaya or Silva, who have the relative comfort of deep midfield space to mess about in. That would be my take on it.

This is how Whoscored explains it "Loss of possession due to a mistake/poor control".

 

[Shaelumstash]

you say he's prone to the odd bad touch, and the statistics back you up. what's the debate here? are we arguing that some numbers are bigger than others and smaller than others?

if you've watched 4 games and feel you are more informed than others who've watched only youtube highlights then at least offer up some intelligent debate.

in your opinion why does he have a bad touch? explain to the extent that 4 games allows you to, rather than remind us that 108 is in fact bigger than 20 or whatever

"Some numbers are bigger than others"? I'm sorry mate, but you're going down some absurd philosophical worm hole that I've got no interest in going down. Genuinely one of the most absurd points I've ever heard in my life.

I've made my point about his touch many times, but I'm happy to make it again. I don't think he's got bad technique. I don't think he's got a bad touch. What I think is that he is 19 years old and he is still developing, he is not quite yet the finished article.

From what I have seen he does sometimes overun the ball and take a heavy touch. A good comparison would be Kelechi. I think Gabriel's technique is better than Kelechi, by the way. But I think Kelechi has very good touch and technique, but he is young and still developing, and sometimes he miscontrols it or overuns it. Certainly more often than our more experienced senior players.

So if you're asking for an explanation, I think it's down to him being young and still developing. I think he's got excellent technique, and will improve no end, but I don't think he's quite the finished product just yet. Just my opinion. I'm still really excited to see him play and think he'll be a brilliant player for us, but I do think he has a bit more development left in him.

 

[Otamendi's Beard]

That's a fair and sensible post mate.

It's me that's brought up that he is prone to the odd heavy touch - that's based on watching him play. I never said he had a "bad touch". That was something made up by a couple of posters who were trying to strawman.

He's got a very good touch in the main, he's just prone to the odd heavy one, similar to Kelechi as you say. It's completely normal that a 19 year old isn't the finished article, there's lots of improvement left in him - that's what's so exciting about him.

Just had a read back further and agree with what you say. I don't think people ever like to hear that a new signing may have a 'weakness' to their game. As you say, he can and will improve and I think everybody is on the same page in seeing his potential.

Those complaining will be the first to criticise in the matchday threads and say he can't 'trap a bag of cement', etc.

 

[Shaelumstash]

Ok mate you win.

Cheers.

 

[manygoose]

People are more than welcome to have an opinion on a player based on a highlights reel. But they'll have to accept it's not a particularly well informed opinion.

There is no debate about whether he is an exciting talent, no debate whether he is fast, whether he's got good skills and is a good finisher, everyone is agreed on that.

The debate was about whether he was prone to the odd heavy touch. From what I've seen of him in the 3 or 4 full games I've watched, he is prone to the odd heavy touch and over running the ball. It turns out the statistics that analysed every single game he played in the league last year show that he had the 2nd most miscontrols in the entire league. So that backs up my judgement from watching him play.

Other posters used his career highlights reel as some kind of evidence that he doesn't have any bad touches or miscontrols. I'm sorry, but I don't accept that as relevant evidence when debating this specific point. Highlights videos don't tend to show mistakes - that's why they're called highlights.

So, by all means, have an opinion on the player based solely on his Youtube career highlights, get really excited if that's what you want to do. But just don't be disappointed and get on his back if he doesn't live up to the unrealistic expectations you put on him. Give the kid a bit of time to develop.

Can I just add. That a lot of unsuccessful touches does not imply he has a bad touch. The situation has to be taken into account. Dembele (spurs CM) has a successful take-on % of 84.44 whereas Eden Hazard has a % of 76.52 (both according to Squawka comparison matrix). However you can't say that Dembele can dribble better than Hazard can. Harzard is taking on defenders, if he gets past he's normally in on goal if not creating a chance. Dembele operates deeper so is taking on people not naturally inclined to defend.

Applying this to the unsuccessful touch of Gabriel Jesus, maybe offer some insight. If he's playing on the last man, on his shoulder, and balls are being played into his chest, or for him to collect at full speed, but if he controls it he's creating a chance or in on goal, then having lots of unsuccessful touches doesn't mean his touch is bad, it says the balls going to him are very difficult to control. However if you've seen in your 4 games, that he comes to collect balls from midfield by dropping between the lines into acres of space and a heavy touch under no pressure get's it away from him, then yeah you can probably say he has a bad touch.

 

[steviemc]

Then I'd like to know what an unsuccessful touch actually is. Is it only looking at first touches, or EVERY touch? Someone like Yaya or Silva will receive the ball and pass it on 1 or 2 touches later. In contrast, from what I've seen, Jesus will go on a run with it and take well in excess of 10 touches maybe more. If he dribbles with the ball and he gets crowded out, does that count as an unsuccessful touch, an unsuccessful dribble, or both? He plays a more complicated game than Silva and Yaya. Jesus is not so focused on ball-retention, but more on being directly dangerous. With such a style, I think giving the ball away more, or not always having it under perfect control, is normal. Also, it's much more difficult to get your touch spot on when your being man-handled by defenders. Those in more advanced positions have to contend with this far more than Yaya or Silva, who have the relative comfort of deep midfield space to mess about in. That would be my take on it.

Yep, the 'unsuccessful touch' stat is a very grey area, as it can unfairly skew ability for those that dribble past many players (but sometimes lose the ball because they become crowded out or similar). This happens to Messi quite a bit, despite his undisputed quality. There's an interesting Opta related article here which shows how difficult and involved data collection can be regarding players who often dribble with the ball, rather than lay it off at first opportunity :-

http://mackayanalytics.nl/2016/11/18/measuring-dribbling-skill/

 

[manygoose]

"Some numbers are bigger than others"? I'm sorry mate, but you're going down some absurd philosophical worm hole that I've got no interest in going down. Genuinely one of the most absurd points I've ever heard in my life.

I've made my point about his touch many times, but I'm happy to make it again. I don't think he's got bad technique. I don't think he's got a bad touch. What I think is that he is 19 years old and he is still developing, he is not quite yet the finished article.

From what I have seen he does sometimes overun the ball and take a heavy touch. A good comparison would be Kelechi. I think Gabriel's technique is better than Kelechi, by the way. But I think Kelechi has very good touch and technique, but he is young and still developing, and sometimes he miscontrols it or overuns it. Certainly more often than our more experienced senior players.

So if you're asking for an explanation, I think it's down to him being young and still developing. I think he's got excellent technique, and will improve no end, but I don't think he's quite the finished product just yet. Just my opinion. I'm still really excited to see him play and think he'll be a brilliant player for us, but I do think he has a bit more development left in him.

You said he had the second most unsuccessful touches in the league (108). So? What does that mean? Explain.. Debate..do something with that statement. You can't just say 108 unsuccessful touches implies he has a bad touch.