George Floyd murder | Clashes between US police and protestors

[Ban-jani]

No one is. It’s just being pointed out that we are selective in what we remember and if we have that right to be selective then so do black people when it comes to the Atlantic Slave Trade.

Sound fair?

Completely fair, yes.

 

[daztrueblue91]

I don’t think any British women link modern day Norwegian men to the Norse Vikings who took British women as slaves so that they could copulate (most likely through rape) with them and reproduce in their new nation on Iceland when they had no women and needed children.

Nor do we in the North of England today link modern day people in Normandy in France (or Scandinavians who were actually the Normans) to the genocide of the people in Northern England in the Harrying of the North.

But I also never see it mentioned about how black South Africans treat what we call mixed race South Africans (the black South Africans call them “coloureds”, disown them from their families and segregate them in their own neighbourhoods); the genocide of black Africans who happen not to be Islamic by Islamic black Africans in Darfur; the ethnic war in Angola with one ethnicity of black people being slaughtered because they aren’t the same black ethnicity as the main population; the treatment of black people by Arabic people in Yemen; the murdering of black Melanesians in West Papua by Indonesians; as well as the ones you’ve mentioned... and the African empires’ roles in the slave trade to the Europeans and Asians...

Because this movement is an American one, with America famed for being unaware of the wider world outside their country, pointing out white atrocities against black people [which are absolutely terrible, not downplaying that!] but then because the rest of the world always follows America it just follows that same path. There only seems to be a linking of modern whites to the past and present or a shaming of white people into feeling guilt for their past and present, and everyone else’s past and present on the exact same issue is overlooked or ignored.

I think the fundamental difference between your examples between the Vikings and the Norman Harrying of the North to the issue of slavery is one of time and legacy.

There are not many people, if any, who are still negatively impacted by the Harrying of the North or the Viking rule. However, the legacy of slavery is still there for all to see. America has never achieved full equality for black Americans and there are people who themselves/grandparents/parents have experienced the Jim Crow laws.

The other issues you raise are worthy of discussion but don’t appear to have much relevance with what is going on in America.

 

[Magicpole]

What did they ever do for us !!! FFS they built a wall to keep @Magicpole out, isn't that enough ?

Two

 

[BobKowalski]

Completely fair, yes.

Then can you tell everyone else that it is fair for Black people to be selective about remembering things that impact on them, either as a community or as an individual, and not have to take into account the Pyramids, the Romans, the Vikings etc.

We have that right and exercise it. They should have it as well.

 

[Elbow beards]

anyone dug any dirt up on Eric Morecambe yet?

I don't give a fuck about any statues as long as they leave Frank sidebottom's alone. :)

 

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

I was being deliberate with that post...not deliberately offensive...but deliberate to highlight that we are all selective. I appreciate that the purpose of remembrance day is meant to remember those who died in conflicts...but it soon becomes about remembering those who died on "our side" and then it becomes all about those who went and fought for our "freedoms"....then it becomes about how we triumphed....and then it becomes my union jack is bigger than your union jack...and it goes on and on.

Its particularly bad over here....every anniversary, every remembrance day...people posting "lest we forget" banners on their facebook pics, long heartfelt memes of how we must remember those who fought and died etc etc. Yeah thats cool, grand. But none of these people were there...none of them have family who who fought there...therefore they are "virtue signalling". These are the same people who are angrily opposed to people raising awareness of the problems happening right now, today.

If it even matters...(ive bored people to death with this before)...i come from a military family background...my step dad was in the UDR, my dad was in the RAOC, my paternal grandad was in the RAF and shot down over france in WW2...my maternal grandfather fought in the battle of monte casino in WW2....so im not unaware of the Forces

 

[Deleted member 77198]

I have no idea how you got to South Africa and the murder of white farmers.

Personally I thought it was an excellent point about how we only remember what we chose to remember. A Remembrance Day for all those killed in the Atlantic Slave Trade whilst under British control would be greeted with horror.

Remembrance Day is already there to remember those who were killed and affected by all wars.

All those killed and affected by the Atlantic Slave Trade can be remembered on RD as they were slaves from wars in Africa where they were defeated and enslaved by whichever African empire it was empire defeated theirs.

 

[Allnightlong]

I was being deliberate with that post...not deliberately offensive...but deliberate to highlight that we are all selective. I appreciate that the purpose of remembrance day is meant to remember those who died in conflicts...but it soon becomes about remembering those who died on "our side" and then it becomes all about those who went and fought for our "freedoms"....then it becomes about how we triumphed....and then it becomes my union jack is bigger than your union jack...and it goes on and on.

Its particularly bad over here....every anniversary, every remembrance day...people posting "lest we forget" banners on their facebook pics, long heartfelt memes of how we must remember those who fought and died etc etc. Yeah thats cool, grand. But none of these people were there...none of them have family who who fought there...therefore they are "virtue signalling". These are the same people who are angrily opposed to people raising awareness of the problems happening right now, today.

If it even matters...(ive bored people to death with this before)...i come from a military family background...my step dad was in the UDR, my dad was in the RAOC, my paternal grandad was in the RAF and shot down over france in WW2...my maternal grandfather fought in the battle of monte casino in WW2....so im not unaware of the Forces

"power hungry fascist c*nts the lot of them"

 

[purplenose]

i kinda reluctantly agree with this...makes sense.

Maybe we can stop all the "Lest We Forget" flag wavers too...banging on about wars "we won"...but had absolutely nothing to do with?

The lest we forget is slightly different. Nor do I see riots and demands that anyone German or Japanese should "take a bayonet and apologise for all the bad things they did.

As time goes on and those wars go further into the past then I suspect that such ceremonies will become less important. There are still people alive who were touched by WW2.

The bottom line is those historical events are not marked with riots and violence.

 

[Ban-jani]

Then can you tell everyone else that it is fair for Black people to be selective about remembering things that impact on them, either as a community or as an individual, and not have to take into account the Pyramids, the Romans, the Vikings etc.

We have that right and exercise it. They should have it as well.

From my perspective you’ve got one side saying “Britain is a deeply racist country and you’ve nothing to be proud of” and the other side saying “Britain has always been a great country and we’ve got nothing to be ashamed of”.

Of course, as always, the answer is in the middle but in the internet age, the middle is hard to come by.

 

[daztrueblue91]

I was being deliberate with that post...not deliberately offensive...but deliberate to highlight that we are all selective. I appreciate that the purpose of remembrance day is meant to remember those who died in conflicts...but it soon becomes about remembering those who died on "our side" and then it becomes all about those who went and fought for our "freedoms"....then it becomes about how we triumphed....and then it becomes my union jack is bigger than your union jack...and it goes on and on.

Its particularly bad over here....every anniversary, every remembrance day...people posting "lest we forget" banners on their facebook pics, long heartfelt memes of how we must remember those who fought and died etc etc. Yeah thats cool, grand. But none of these people were there...none of them have family who who fought there...therefore they are "virtue signalling". These are the same people who are angrily opposed to people raising awareness of the problems happening right now, today.

If it even matters...(ive bored people to death with this before)...i come from a military family background...my step dad was in the UDR, my dad was in the RAOC, my paternal grandad was in the RAF and shot down over france in WW2...my maternal grandfather fought in the battle of monte casino in WW2....so im not unaware of the Forces

For me the solution would be to have two remembrance days across the year. One for those who fought to protect Britain and the Empire and one for those who were killed/negatively impacted by the actions of the British Empire.

People can then interpret each day as they wish as long as they remain respectful.

 

[Fame Monster]

And again no. You are putting down pre conditions. Do not talk about the Atlantic Slave Trade without also acknowledging other slave trades existed and reminding them they are not the only ones to suffer because you know the Romans.

This aspect of the slave trade is being talked about because of its context and impact on society as it is today, a society that we all live in. That it is relevance and why the impact of slavery in Roman Britain is not. If Roman Britain still existed then you can bet the impact of slavery in Roman Britain would be a thing.

No one is denying slavery didn’t exist elsewhere. No one is saying do not talk about other slave trades, or modern forms of slavery. By all means discuss it, campaign against it, no one is going to say ‘well hang on can you please acknowledge other aspects of slavery first, otherwise shut up.’

As for equality ‘you don’t want different treatment for different groups’ well that’s big of you. So if one group isn’t treated equally then how do they get this message to you? Do they first have to acknowledge that in the past everyone has had the rough end of the stick? Do they have to keep quiet and wait until equality magically appears after a few hundred years? Do they wait until there are enough bodies for people to notice, because they are kind of piling up in some places?

Do tell black and other minorities how to do it properly. I’m sure they will be grateful.

It's not a precondition. It's about education.

You were questioning why people were pointing out that other European countries/the Romans/African empires were involved in slavery and my response to that is that some people talk about the TST as if it were the only slave trade that ever existed. That's historical nonsense that fuels a sense of grievance and people are rebutting the implication.

How is the TST anymore relevant to other slave trades in the UK today? It was abolished about 200 years ago: it's irrelevant. Racism existed long before the TST and will exist long after it.

As to your last point, people can express their grievances however they want. I personally would rather them do it legally, democratically, or if they want to protest in number, do it outside of a pandemic. If they do protest though, and bring up issues that aren't relevant or people disagree with, they should expect to hear those arguments.

 

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

"power hungry fascist c*nts the lot of them"

yeah, from experience.

 

[Blue Hefner]

Anyone mentioned “White History Month” yet......

 

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

For me the solution would be to have two remembrance days across the year. One for those who fought to protect Britain and the Empire and one for those who were killed/negatively impacted by the actions of the British Empire.

People can then interpret each day as they wish as long as they remain respectful.

My grandad hated remembrance day...."i dont wanna remember all that, it was horrible"

 

[bobbyowenquiff]

From my perspective you’ve got one side saying “Britain is a deeply racist country and you’ve nothing to be proud of” and the other side saying “Britain has always been a great country and we’ve got nothing to be ashamed of”.

Of course, as always, the answer is in the middle but in the internet age, the middle is hard to come by.

Spot-on. There is no middle ground any more. My dad fought (and was wounded) in World War 2. He was cynical about aspects of Remembrance Day because he felt politicians had increasingly used it for propaganda reasons and a lot of servicemen had been neglected after the war. He also had no time for Winston Churchill but that may have been clouded by the fact he was Irish and didn't have a lot of time for Oliver Cromwell either. The point is that history is a complex thing and can't be summed up in a single Twitter post.
I have nothing but pride and respect for the wartime generation who saved this country from the evils of Fascism. But equally I believe that one of the worst things about the UK is our fixation with the past and unwillingness to modernise. The faster this country declines the more people seem to find refuge in the past. That's not good for anyone's mental health.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

Anyone mentioned “White History Month” yet......

changing it to try and get a bite. Child.

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

Anyone mentioned “White History Month” yet......

I think Black History Month is October/November so we must have the rest.

It's a bit of a paradox for me. We see the notion of a tolerant society being illustrated by people being allowed to demonstrate their intolerance. it's an interesting concept to think that had the present statue-wreckers, flag burners and paint daubers existed at another historical time would they have expressed the same opinions as they hold now. I think, historically, people go with the flow, they are part of the flock. Few stand up against repression, few have the courage. We should read a bit more of Bonhoeffer or Niemoller.

 

[bluemoon32]

She saved him from a far more severe beating from what I saw of the video.

Having watched it again you are right.
Still think she should have tasered or smacked them in the head with her truncheon

 

[Rascal]

Thomas Jefferson?

Davis

I missed his surname out of the sentence

Sorry