Grenfell Tower block disaster

[urban genie]

There was a letter in the DT from a former district inspector - a role we seem no longer to have - and he was saying that they considered two things when buildings were being erected: first, it mustn't fall down, and second, it mustn't catch fire. After those two they were told to use 'their common sense'! I wonder where in the deep recesses of common sense lies the notion that if there's a fire you stay in your flat!

The advice is because the flats are concrete and have fire doors so in theory a fire in a flat will be contained to a small area and easily managable and quickly put out, but it seems (not confirmed mind) that sticking a load of flamible plastic on the concrete exterior has negated that.

It's also worrying that it was suggested by an ex fire fighter that no fire service in the country has any fire engines thats hydrolic ladders reach more than 32 meters (11 stories in a building).
Now with many high rises and other new builds in cities being 30 story+ is that not a worry, I admit I don't know, maybe someone does on here.

 

[Vic]

There was an interview on radio this morning that suggested that where people are unaccounted for, no-one has sat down with relatives, gone through what is known about their missing (where they were, phone calls etc) and helped them understand what the reality might be. If that's so, that's unacceptable, even if people are in denial. There was no hint that the broadcaster (Radio 4) had tried to establish if it was so.

 

[cleavers]

The internal fire spread was just as alarming though.

It was, but maybe its easy to understand why, because it was a pretty warm night, so people will have had their windows open (I know we did that night, and I'm only 30 miles away, and even in a more rural area it was a warm night especially inside). The speed it spread through the building at that time of night, many people wouldn't have known the danger of an open window, and only a bit of burning debris inside would start a fire internally, so the fire probably entered many flats quite quickly.

 

[SWP's back]

If the fire stopping is in place on the slab levels there can be no chimney. Also rainscreen cladding has open horizontal joints which would expel smoke and the whole wall construction is capped at the top. Have designed many on both new and refurbished towers,,! Our whole office spent the last few days checking our specs for buildings going back 10 years....whatever happened here, will hit construction hard....although IMO the regs are sound. Procurement and building practice will be shaken down.

Very interesting, cheers.

 

[The Northern Baptist]

Nowt to do with my question. Or anything possibly!

Anyway I think I've found my answer. It was easier to find than I thought.

The air gap is between the insulation and the outer skin which is there only to keep rain off the insulation. But it should have vertical and horizontal compartments so it should not act as a funnel. Next question - for anyone who actually knows - is whether that means the funnel theory is nonsense. As I posted a couple of days ago, I think the coanda effect means fire scrolls up a building. The cladding caught fire but the fire would spread up anyway.

https://www.thenbs.com/knowledge/rainscreen-cladding-letting-air-in-to-keep-rain-out


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trench_effect

http://www.highrisefirefighting.co.uk/physics.html

Thank you for sharing that with us

 

[vonkeynotvenky]

Whatever information the govt release about the cause of the fire and this horrible loss of life is going to be picked over and after the Hillsborough shenanigans with inquiry after inquiry I don't believe many people have that much faith in the system any more. Something went wrong whether it was cost cutting bad design or unsafe building regs but it's going to take ages to come out into the open, this is going to breed theories about a cover up.

 

[Blue Llama]

Spot on mate.
The internal fire spread was just as alarming though. As a 70,s tower I would have expected some asbestos spray coats to communal slab areas...maybe it was removed?
However something went horribly wrong with the stair and core protection and strategy...

It will be interesting to see if the fire inspection reveals fire doors on the floor decks were propped open.

 

[manctheknife]

It will be interesting to see if the fire inspection reveals fire doors on the floor decks were propped open.

Yeah, communal areas in towers also attract clutter....any fire strategy for escape has to have everyone buying in...

 

[goalmole]

I haven't read the whole thread so it could have been mentioned before but surely, it is also the politics surrounding this tragedy that need to be looked at in this enquiry. Were the regulations watered down that enabled landlords to get away with renting out properties that were not as safe as they could have been. What was the role of lobbyists in restricting legislation and the role of governments in pandering to money before welfare, thereby putting lives at risk. These are all questions that need to be answered as well as any specific questions of oversight or neglect that may be relevant to the Grenfell flats.

 

[urban genie]

It will be interesting to see if the fire inspection reveals fire doors on the floor decks were propped open.

Possibly they would have been, as people prop corridoor doors open all the time, really a residential block like that should have magni-lock doors that automatically close upon a fire so they can be left open in stuffier areas, but then it seems the fire systems were inadequate.

On another note when Japan had the 2001 earthquake displacing 43000 people they rehoused all within 3 days to 2 weeks in prefabricated temperary homes, why we don't have such measures, if not in place now being acted upon by the local council or government, and if we do why are they not speaking to people or saying what they are gonna do to rehouse people in the coming days to help stem some of the anger.