Hart V Given?

[Lordeffingham]

Sometimes a goalkeepers brilliance in areas that stand out, can blind you from other areas in which they have glaring deficiciencies.
Though many will read this and become very defensive of Given, as I did myself prior to reading, and giving thought to some interesting facts about Given's career.
I have since reading a serious article on the flaws to his game, realised there is a lot of evidence which does suggest, that being one of the best shot stoppers in world football today, does not on it's own make him a competent or great Keeper.
It is pointed out that at every stage of Shay's career and at every club he has been with, he has shown tremendous ability as a shot stopper but has never excelled in any other of the other areas required to be classed as a truly great keeper.
It is no coincidence that all the defences that have played in front of Shay, have leaked goals in a regular and quite alarming fashion.
Our defence have throughout this season been identified and criticised for their innabilities to defend as well as they might and we have been hit time and time again, by sucker punches mainly from crosses, set pieces and corners.
Maybe, just Maybe the problem all along has been Given's absolute innability to come for anything in the air that is more than 3 yards from his goal line?
I accept in any event that there is a distint lack these days, of keepers who truly command their area in the way Schmeichel did, but Joe Hart does seem to have improved in this area, and is now getting close to the finished article.
Our defensive unit has without doubt improved greatly recently, but you always feel we are still very vulnerable from anything in the air, whether from crosses, free kicks or corners.
Anyway, I believe many of the games where we conceded soft goals and let points slip away, were quite possibly down more to Given's weakness's to come for balls in the air than to our centre halves and fullbacks.
Try to look at this constructively, watch him in these areas in the coming weeks and maybe you'll come to the same conclusion I have, that Shay isn't anywhere near as good as we all seem to think.
In my opinion Joe Hart should be back next season and Shay should be Joe's understudy.

 

[ramsdale4]

Gash

joe (although he is a good young keeper with huge potential) is nowhere near the ability of Given. It's a complete myth that Given is only any good a shot stopping. If this was the case then he would never have made it at any level in football, never mind the very top.

I'm sorry but some people need to get of this bandwagon that people have created on here and watch Given properly. Christ is was only 2 months ago that he was one of he top 3 goalies in the world! I'm sorry mate, but I'm going to have to take my own opinion and that of the many great coaches and managers who have worked with him over some piss pot article you have read.

 

[GTKirchoff]

Has he made it at the top level of football though?

Only City, a mid table club at the time, went in for him. Despite Arsenal and United both desperately needing keepers and him not being expensive.

 

[Marvin]

Shay gets a bit of criticism for staying on his line - justifiably, but that's Hart's weakness too

 

[ramsdale4]

Has he made it at the top level of football though?

Only City, a mid table club at the time, went in for him. Despite Arsenal and United both desperately needing keepers and him not being expensive.

I just assumed that being recognised as one of the best keepers in the premier league and playing in Europe and internationally would be regarded as the top level. Silly me, I should realise that as a city fan I shouldn't be praising him and accepting the fact that he is a world class player. What was I thinking?

 

[There is a Light]

It is no coincidence that all the defences that have played in front of Shay, have leaked goals in a regular and quite alarming fashion.

It is no coincidence that he spent the majority of his career at Newcastle playing behind a comedy defence season after season.

Everyone knows that Shay could be better at commanding his area, but I don't think it is going to improve markedly at this stage of his career. Joe Hart has a similar problem, but he is still learning and can improve in this area.

I would bring Hart back and let them have a fair fight for the jersey this time. This wasn't the case when Given was bought by Hughes. Hopefully we will see Hart playing at the World Cup as well, imo he is better than any other English keeper out there at the minute.

 

[The Twigg]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgKkRRom7vY[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTb7ykqpL1o[/youtube]

 

[Lordeffingham]

ramsdale4, I was hoping for some constructive thoughts and posts in reply, and though we all have opinions, stating 2 months ago he was in the top 3 keepers in the world, is not anything but an opinion, I doubt many, even true Blues would put him in that category.
Stating it is no more than a myth, that he is only a good shot stopper is a bit rich, maybe you could evidence all the times he has worked wonders outside the six yad box, or where his attributes display brilliance in other areas, because off the top of my head I can't think of any?
I agree that Joe is still learning and may not be the fished article, but he is without doubt a very much improved keeper, working with a defense on paper, greatly inferior to ours, and has proved he is good enough to play for any premiership team, leaking less goals than Shay all season long.

 

[Deleted member 14625]

The goalkeeper position is as an important position as anywhere in the team! no club has won the league with a keeper that hasn't got 90% of what is required to be a goalkeeper!

GK should have the following attributes:
Shot stopping. Catching crosses (corners and deeper in-play balls). Distribution, i) dead ball kicking (goal and free kicks), ii) kicking out of hands, iii) throwing (short and long). Communicaion, i) organising at corners and free kicks, ii) instructing defenders what's going on/where to be in general play, iii) instructing defenders when they are running towards their own goal with the ball or stuck in a corner (what's behind them?)...

In my eyes Shay Given is a fantastic, possibly the best I've seen in my 21 years of watching footy, shot stopper! He howls instructions to the wall when we are facing a free kick in our last third! and he can kick a dead ball with fair accuracy and fair distance (just past the half-way line)! but to be honest that is it!

He rarely collects crosses (and if you've ever played footy, especially as a centre half, you will know how great it is to have a keeper that smothers any cross that is 10foot high within 10foot of the goal - it takes HUGE amounts of pressure off the defenders and the team as a whole and it makes the opposition have to think of other ways of getting near to the goal for a threat!). His kicking out of his hands goes a fair way (not that far) but can be so inaccurate that it goes nowhere near where it is intended and where te team has set up to expect it to go and the opposition have the ball back and can treaten us yet again! He has no long throw on him at all, I've seen threads slagging off Wright-Phillips in recent months but I've seen Shaun make fantastic runs and get himself in a great position behind a full back who has just pushed forward and an easy long throw to the half way (it's much more accurate than a kick) would set up a threatening attack for us - but it doesn't happen and their players will get back set up and be in position for another inaccurate kick! and I've noticed a few times that when a ball through our defence hasn't got to the oppo's striker and has run through and our defender is running towards our goal with the ball he has options that he should be trained to choose, but I've seen Lescott make a couple of strange or rash decisions in this position and has then moaned at Given for not telling him what is around him or what to do!

Now don't get me wrong; I totally appreciate Shay's numerous saves at home to Boro last season that won us 2 maybe 3 points, I totally appreciate Shay's penalty save against Brum away that earned us a point, I totally appreciate Shay's peno save against Chelsea that earned us 2 maybe 3 points, and I appreciate anything else good that he does in that shirt with a City badge on it and will be totally behind him at every game I am at when he plays! But I personally don't think we will win the league while we have a goalkeeper with so many areas that are lacking or aren't great playing for us! 6th 5th 4th 3rd and maybe even 2nd (and I'd be extremely happy to finish in any of these positions as I've never seen us finish higher than 5th as I'm only 27) but at some point we will be looking at winning this league and we will need a keeper who can do the lot or at least almost the lot in order to do that!<br /><br />-- Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:16 am --<br /><br />I haven't seen enough of Hart this season to judge him on the areas I have judged Given on! I've actually just signed up to a Brum forum and when my username clears and I can post on there I will be asking people who can judge Hart properly!

 

[Blutony]

I think sg is one of if not the best keeper in the prem and at his age I believe he has at least 3 years ahead of him. Can't see any way to keep jh happy in this situation

 

[Tricky Dickys Right Foot Shot]

Both can't command for shit hart was lucky Liverpool were shite infront of goal last week so many open chances in front of him could of ended 3 or 4 - 1

 

[wearethesouthstand]

my info - decision already been made... hart to have 1 more season at st. andrews next season, they pay us £1.5m if they stay up...which obviously they will do...

alex mcleish will try and make quotes in the paper saying "we want the boy again next year" so when he stays it looks like mcleish has achieved something but its already sorted

 

[Lomas has a lob on]

Were so lucy to even have this issue! Hart WILL be a great GK hopefully with City getting his best years, but right now, Given is head and shoulders above Hart, Given gets some un warrented stick imo, were so lucky to have him, even when at Newcastle I rated him as the best in the Prem, my opinion hasn't changed a jot, He is the most important City player, if he were t pick an injury up tomorrow, our season quite possibly would crumble infront of our eyes. I hope Hart has another year, maybe even two on loan, until Given reaches his latter years, as right now Given in GK terms is at his peak age. However imo, we need to sign a good back up if Hart does go off again.