Hillsboro verdict

The jury at the Hillsborough inquests has been told one of its options is to consider whether the 96 victims of the disaster were unlawfully killed.

The coroner has started summing up after hearing nearly two years of evidence into the 1989 disaster. Sir John Goldring told the jury it would be asked if error, omission or circumstances contributed to the disaster. He said the question of how the 96 died was "the most controversial". There are certain words such as "crime" the jury should not use, he added. However, he said words such as "failure", "inappropriate" and "inadequate" could be used.

Over the next three weeks, the coroner will review evidence on how 96 Liverpool fans died at the FA Cup semi-final in Sheffield.

The jury is due to retire to consider its verdicts on 22 February.
from the liverpool echo-


The court heard that among the general questions, which cover topics including the planning and policing of the 1989 FA Cup semi-final and the emergency response, was a section asking the jury about unlawful killing.

The question read: “Are you satisfied, so that you are sure, that those who died in the disaster were unlawfully killed?”

The coroner told the court that according to law the jury could not name the person or people they regarded as responsible in their determination.

But, Sir John told the jury: “In order to answer ‘yes’ to that question, you would have to be sure that David Duckenfield, the match commander, was responsible for the manslaughter by gross negligence of those 96 people.

“When answering this question we are looking at Mr Duckenfield’s conduct and his responsibility.”

He told the jury that in order to answer ‘yes’ to the question of whether the victims were unlawfully killed they must be sure of four points:

* Whether Mr Duckenfield owed a duty of care to the 96


The coroner said it was agreed by all, including Mr Duckenfield’s representatives, that Mr Duckenfield owed a duty of care to people attending the semi-final; the duty he owed was to take reasonable care to ensure people attending the semi-final could attend, watch and depart reasonably safely and that the standard of care he had to meet was of a reasonably careful and competent match commander in 1989.

* Whether Mr Duckenfield was in breach of the duty of care

The coroner said: “You must be sure that Mr Duckenfield’s actions were not those which a reasonably careful and competent match commander would have taken in 1989 so that the 96 people could attend, watch and depart reasonably safely.”

He added: “You should not blame Mr Duckenfield for mistakes made by others and for which he had no responsibility.

“Having said that, it would be possible to say that Mr Duckenfield breached his duty of care by failing, himself, to do or check things or to act on information provided by others or to order others to take certain action.”

* Whether Mr Duckenfield’s breach of his duty of care led to the 96 deaths

The coroner told the jurors that if they answered ‘yes’ to the unlawful killing question they must be sure that Mr Duckenfield’s breach of his duty of care caused the deaths.

He said: “It need not be the only cause.

“It is enough if it contributed to the deaths in a significant and not merely minimal way.”

* Whether the breach amounted to gross negligence


Sir John said: “You have to consider whether you are sure that Mr Duckenfield’s breach of his duty of care to the supporters was so bad, having regard to the risk of death involved, as in your view to amount to a criminal act or omission.”

He says the jury must also be sure that a reasonably competent and careful match commander, in his position, would have foreseen a serious and obvious risk of death to fans in the central pens.

He added: “You consider his conduct in its proper context and you ask yourselves whether, having regard to the foreseeable risk of death to those in the central pens, it was so bad as in your view to be criminal.”

The coroner told the jury: “You should only answer yes to the question of whether the 96 people were unlawfully killed if you can be sure of all four requirements.”
 
The jury at the Hillsborough inquests has been told one of its options is to consider whether the 96 victims of the disaster were unlawfully killed.

The coroner has started summing up after hearing nearly two years of evidence into the 1989 disaster. Sir John Goldring told the jury it would be asked if error, omission or circumstances contributed to the disaster. He said the question of how the 96 died was "the most controversial". There are certain words such as "crime" the jury should not use, he added. However, he said words such as "failure", "inappropriate" and "inadequate" could be used.

Over the next three weeks, the coroner will review evidence on how 96 Liverpool fans died at the FA Cup semi-final in Sheffield.

The jury is due to retire to consider its verdicts on 22 February.
from the liverpool echo-


The court heard that among the general questions, which cover topics including the planning and policing of the 1989 FA Cup semi-final and the emergency response, was a section asking the jury about unlawful killing.

The question read: “Are you satisfied, so that you are sure, that those who died in the disaster were unlawfully killed?”

The coroner told the court that according to law the jury could not name the person or people they regarded as responsible in their determination.

But, Sir John told the jury: “In order to answer ‘yes’ to that question, you would have to be sure that David Duckenfield, the match commander, was responsible for the manslaughter by gross negligence of those 96 people.

“When answering this question we are looking at Mr Duckenfield’s conduct and his responsibility.”

He told the jury that in order to answer ‘yes’ to the question of whether the victims were unlawfully killed they must be sure of four points:

* Whether Mr Duckenfield owed a duty of care to the 96


The coroner said it was agreed by all, including Mr Duckenfield’s representatives, that Mr Duckenfield owed a duty of care to people attending the semi-final; the duty he owed was to take reasonable care to ensure people attending the semi-final could attend, watch and depart reasonably safely and that the standard of care he had to meet was of a reasonably careful and competent match commander in 1989.

* Whether Mr Duckenfield was in breach of the duty of care

The coroner said: “You must be sure that Mr Duckenfield’s actions were not those which a reasonably careful and competent match commander would have taken in 1989 so that the 96 people could attend, watch and depart reasonably safely.”

He added: “You should not blame Mr Duckenfield for mistakes made by others and for which he had no responsibility.

“Having said that, it would be possible to say that Mr Duckenfield breached his duty of care by failing, himself, to do or check things or to act on information provided by others or to order others to take certain action.”

* Whether Mr Duckenfield’s breach of his duty of care led to the 96 deaths

The coroner told the jurors that if they answered ‘yes’ to the unlawful killing question they must be sure that Mr Duckenfield’s breach of his duty of care caused the deaths.

He said: “It need not be the only cause.

“It is enough if it contributed to the deaths in a significant and not merely minimal way.”

* Whether the breach amounted to gross negligence


Sir John said: “You have to consider whether you are sure that Mr Duckenfield’s breach of his duty of care to the supporters was so bad, having regard to the risk of death involved, as in your view to amount to a criminal act or omission.”

He says the jury must also be sure that a reasonably competent and careful match commander, in his position, would have foreseen a serious and obvious risk of death to fans in the central pens.

He added: “You consider his conduct in its proper context and you ask yourselves whether, having regard to the foreseeable risk of death to those in the central pens, it was so bad as in your view to be criminal.”

The coroner told the jury: “You should only answer yes to the question of whether the 96 people were unlawfully killed if you can be sure of all four requirements.”
After reading this, I'm concerned that they may not get 'YES' ... Clearly it was an accident,but was preventable if people had done their jobs properly, therefore those persons who did not, are responsible and have the blood on their hands,of 96 people.

That problem in 1981... Just think if we had drawn wolves, rather than Ipswich
 
After reading this, I'm concerned that they may not get 'YES' ... Clearly it was an accident,but was preventable if people had done their jobs properly, therefore those persons who did not, are responsible and have the blood on their hands,of 96 people.

That problem in 1981... Just think if we had drawn wolves, rather than Ipswich
Whereas my take on that, albeit with a cursory read, is that they're throwing Duckenfield to the wolves

Wasn't one man did this
 
Duckenfield's biggest 'crime' wasn't opening the gates - that's something many of us may have done - it was that he lied about it afterwards. WIthin an hour of it happening he told a blatant lie about it and that, as commander of the whole operation was unforgivable. For that reason, he ought to have lost his job anyway.

Of course the disaster wasn't all down to him - as with most disasters, a number of failures conspired to result in tragedy. There are plenty of people to 'blame' in the sense that people became far too complacent about safety, but Duckenfield consciously tried to subvert justice.

As for fans behaviour - many fans weren't angels and make no mistake, when in large groups, their behaviour left a lot to be desired (as is still the case today). Fans arrived at the stadium very late and in large numbers, often with a sudden urgency to get in - a behaviour that's not conducive to safety. However, it was a known behaviour that the FA / Stadium and Police all tried to mitigate against (and failed). As much as the authorities made mistakes fans should also remember that they need to behave sensibly. I've seen fans in recent years think it's a 'bit of fun' to push a queue from the back - with little regard for those at the front of the queue. They simply don't realise how quickly a 'big of fun' turns into a crush. Anyway, the point being that fans need to take some responsibility for their actions just as much as expecting the authorities to.

What happened at Hillsborough could have happened to anybody. I firmly believe that. And whilst I may deplore the attitudes of some Liverpool fans, they'll always get my backing on the injustice on Hillsborough.
 
Duckenfield's biggest 'crime' wasn't opening the gates - that's something many of us may have done - it was that he lied about it afterwards. WIthin an hour of it happening he told a blatant lie about it and that, as commander of the whole operation was unforgivable. For that reason, he ought to have lost his job anyway.

Of course the disaster wasn't all down to him - as with most disasters, a number of failures conspired to result in tragedy. There are plenty of people to 'blame' in the sense that people became far too complacent about safety, but Duckenfield consciously tried to subvert justice.

As for fans behaviour - many fans weren't angels and make no mistake, when in large groups, their behaviour left a lot to be desired (as is still the case today). Fans arrived at the stadium very late and in large numbers, often with a sudden urgency to get in - a behaviour that's not conducive to safety. However, it was a known behaviour that the FA / Stadium and Police all tried to mitigate against (and failed). As much as the authorities made mistakes fans should also remember that they need to behave sensibly. I've seen fans in recent years think it's a 'bit of fun' to push a queue from the back - with little regard for those at the front of the queue. They simply don't realise how quickly a 'big of fun' turns into a crush. Anyway, the point being that fans need to take some responsibility for their actions just as much as expecting the authorities to.

What happened at Hillsborough could have happened to anybody. I firmly believe that. And whilst I may deplore the attitudes of some Liverpool fans, they'll always get my backing on the injustice on Hillsborough.


Serious question, have you followed the case at all? It just sounds like you've repeated a lot of clichés from over the years.
 
Serious question, have you followed the case at all? It just sounds like you've repeated a lot of clichés from over the years.
Yes, very intimately.

It's not a perfunctory post, it's the same conclusion Taylor reached in his interim report (which was poorly named as it wasn't interim).
He wasn't the ONLY cause

1) The turnstiles were known to be underperforming
2) The signage for the tunnel was ambiguous, when it should have guided fans to the corners and not down the middle
3) Fans arrived late (but that was expected behaviour)
4) Pen capacity was manually estimated and 'self levelling' was expected (wrongly)
5) The barriers were in need of maintenance although would most likely have not changed much
6) Both the FA and Poice had known of previous near misses at the stadium
The list of errors is much longer, but any one was never enough to cause disaster, but combined, they did.

Regardless though, Duckenfield's decision to open the gate was not necessarily 'wrong' given the circumstances and it's a decision many others might have made. That's not why he should have lost his job. He should have lost it for lying.
Taylor himself didn't go so far as to call him a liar, but went as far as saying his testimony was highly dubious which in itself is damning for a Senior Police Officer.
He then went on to continue lying to Thatcher and Hurd.

A policeman who lies should not be a policeman. One who lies about the circumstances leading up to 95 deaths (as it was at the time) should be prosecuted.
 
Last edited:
Yes, very intimately.

It's not a perfunctory post, it's the same conclusion Taylor reached in his interim report (which was poorly named as it wasn't interim).
He wasn't the ONLY cause

1) The turnstiles were known to be underperforming
2) The signage for the tunnel was ambiguous, when it should have guided fans to the corners and not down the middle
3) Fans arrived late (but that was expected behaviour)
4) Pen capacity was manually estimated and 'self levelling' was expected (wrongly)
5) The barriers were in need of maintenance although would most likely have not changed much
6) Both the FA and Poice had known of previous near misses at the stadium
The list of errors is much longer, but any one was never enough to cause disaster, but combined, they did.

Regardless though, Duckenfield's decision to open the gate was not necessarily 'wrong' given the circumstances and it's a decision many others might have made. That's not why he should have lost his job. He should have lost it for lying.
Taylor himself didn't go so far as to call him a liar, but went as far as saying his testimony was highly dubious which in itself is damning for a Senior Police Officer.
He then went on to continue lying to Thatcher and Hurd.

A policeman who lies should not be a policeman. One who lies about the circumstances leading up to 95 deaths (as it was at the time) should be prosecuted.


You're missing his most monumental error. He was sat in a perfect position to see the packed central pens and on the cameras he could see there was about to be a serious crush outside the ground. He was absolutely right to open Gate C otherwise there would have been deaths outside but he also knew that that meant thousands of people were about to enter a stand that was already dangerously crowded. Once the decision was made to open Gate C, he then had to close off the entrance to the central pens and have police direct the fans coming in to the side pens. The fact that within minutes of making a decision that killed 96 people, he decided to fabricate a lie and keep it going for nearly 30 years makes him a despicable human being. He shouldn't have been sacked, he should have been in prison.

The Liverpool fans were completely, 100% blameless and I don't give a shit what theories people come up with about reputation. Some of them had a few beers? So what, it's an FA Cup semi final. Arriving late? There was a crash on Snakes Pass that resulted in a lot of fans turning up late. The Kick Off should have been delayed. There were ticketless fans trying to enter the ground? There is no evidence of this on any large scale, although the knowledge of football back then tells you at least some would have tried it on. That said, in court it was proven that the number of Liverpool fans at the ground and in the Leppings Lane end was approximately for the number of tickets that they had been allocated.
 
You're missing his most monumental error. He was sat in a perfect position to see the packed central pens and on the cameras he could see there was about to be a serious crush outside the ground. He was absolutely right to open Gate C otherwise there would have been deaths outside but he also knew that that meant thousands of people were about to enter a stand that was already dangerously crowded. Once the decision was made to open Gate C, he then had to close off the entrance to the central pens and have police direct the fans coming in to the side pens. The fact that within minutes of making a decision that killed 96 people, he decided to fabricate a lie and keep it going for nearly 30 years makes him a despicable human being. He shouldn't have been sacked, he should have been in prison.

The Liverpool fans were completely, 100% blameless and I don't give a shit what theories people come up with about reputation. Some of them had a few beers? So what, it's an FA Cup semi final. Arriving late? There was a crash on Snakes Pass that resulted in a lot of fans turning up late. The Kick Off should have been delayed. There were ticketless fans trying to enter the ground? There is no evidence of this on any large scale, although the knowledge of football back then tells you at least some would have tried it on. That said, in court it was proven that the number of Liverpool fans at the ground and in the Leppings Lane end was approximately for the number of tickets that they had been allocated.

Still think Madchestercitys post is a good one Jay.

However,thanks for reminding me of the reason for a large number of fans arriving late, the snake-pass crash/hold up....over the years i,d forgotten the precise reason for this after reading about it some time ago.it is very rarely mentioned, as so much went off that day,and in my opinion,madchester citys post ,and your own posts , reflect that.
But yes, the senior officers decision to lie, and keep that lie for nearly 30 yrs is indefensible and that will hopefully influence the forthcoming legal decision.
 
People don't concoct and then maintain a lie for 30 year's unless it's to avoid guilt, or spare someone's feelings.
 

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top
  AdBlock Detected
Bluemoon relies on advertising to pay our hosting fees. Please support the site by disabling your ad blocking software to help keep the forum sustainable. Thanks.