Hiroshima Day

Rascal

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It is 76 years since Hiroshima was obliterated. The initial death toll was an estimated 140,000. Many of the survivors contracted cancer because of radiation poisoning and the other side effects wreaked havoc for years. There are many myths about Hiroshima and the use of the A bombs against Japan. Admiral Nimitz the CoC of the US Pacific Fleet said the A Bomb played no decisive part in the defeat of Japan. Churchill wrote "We now had something in our hands which would redress the balance with the Russians", US secretary of State James Byrnes wrote "it was not necessary to use the bomb against Japan" and US General George Marshall said "it was not a military decision to drop the bomb it was rather a political one"

The UK Government plans to increase its upper limit of Nuclear weapons by 40%, we will have 260 nuclear warheads and it is committed to replacing Trident at an estimated cost of £205 Billion . Every one of the UKs nuclear weapons is 8 times more powerful than the bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

The people of the UK are funding a political vanity weapon. The Government are doing this despite the UK being signatories to the UNs non proliferation treaty (TPNW) which has been ratified by 55 states across the world.

Can anyone justify this increase in Nuclear weapons, can anyone even argue the positive in the Government doing this.
 
No, but I know you appreciate philosophy / debate and reading so I'll steer you to the Waltz / Sagan debates. Fantastic book(s) where each take a chapter in turn and debate nuclear proliferation. Waltz (I don't agree btw) actually makes a compelling argument for more nukes = more global stability and peace.
The big thing I took from these was that missile defence systems effectively up the anti of the arms race rather than make us safer. Essentially if you have a system that stops 99 out of a 100 missiles, then your enemy needs 10000 to make sure 100 get through - with that comes a commensurate increase in the likelihood of accidentally starting a war or weapons falling into the hands of extremists / terrorists.
We tend to concentrate on US/NATO, Russia and China, but the real tinderbox that is most likely to go up is India / Pakistan or I suppose Israel / Iran once Iran have a viable arsenal. Humanity could be wiped out by the ensuing nuclear winter without so much as one UK / US / Russian or Chinese weapon being used. Frightening really, and aside from the threat being geographically more remote from the UK than the old Cold War, we are probably in as much or more danger - not a danger our own missiles can alleviate or protect us from. :-(
 
It is 76 years since Hiroshima was obliterated. The initial death toll was an estimated 140,000. Many of the survivors contracted cancer because of radiation poisoning and the other side effects wreaked havoc for years. There are many myths about Hiroshima and the use of the A bombs against Japan. Admiral Nimitz the CoC of the US Pacific Fleet said the A Bomb played no decisive part in the defeat of Japan. Churchill wrote "We now had something in our hands which would redress the balance with the Russians", US secretary of State James Byrnes wrote "it was not necessary to use the bomb against Japan" and US General George Marshall said "it was not a military decision to drop the bomb it was rather a political one"

The UK Government plans to increase its upper limit of Nuclear weapons by 40%, we will have 260 nuclear warheads and it is committed to replacing Trident at an estimated cost of £205 Billion . Every one of the UKs nuclear weapons is 8 times more powerful than the bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

The people of the UK are funding a political vanity weapon. The Government are doing this despite the UK being signatories to the UNs non proliferation treaty (TPNW) which has been ratified by 55 states across the world.

Can anyone justify this increase in Nuclear weapons, can anyone even argue the positive in the Government doing this.
This is an incredibly difficult subject, one that can only be answered with hindsight where we apply the thinking and moralities of today to that of 76 years ago. 70 years ago we weren't living in relative peace compared to now though, we were living under the threat of daily war and bombings from an aggressor who wanted to kill us and so we had to defend ourselves to survive. It's also ironic that we argue against having nuclear weapons whilst living in a time where they cannot be used by an aggressor because we have them.

I don't think that the US should of dropped the bombs but it's easy to apply this thinking when you only consider the destructive potential of nuclear weapons alone. However, remember that the Japanese were not innocent, they started war with the US by bombing Pearl Harbor without warning and they massacred South East Asia and the region.

Certainly the left on this subject point to the UK/US and allies as the antagonists by using nuclear weapons but they fail to refer to history where Japan were responsible for everything that came to them. Germany had already surrendered, they were warned and they refused to comply with requests for peace (Potsdam declaration) even in the face of defeat.

Certainly ask yourself this, would you drop a nuclear weapon on Japan to force the end the war or would you instead send tens of thousands of British soldiers to their certain deaths to fight Japan until they surrendered?
 
This is an incredibly difficult subject, one that can only be answered with hindsight where we apply the thinking and moralities of today to that of 76 years ago. 70 years ago we weren't living in relative peace compared to now though, we were living under the threat of daily war and bombings from an aggressor who wanted to kill us and so we had to defend ourselves to survive. It's also ironic that we argue against having nuclear weapons whilst living in a time where they cannot be used by an aggressor because we have them.

I don't think that the US should of dropped the bombs but it's easy to apply this thinking when you only consider the destructive potential of nuclear weapons alone. However, remember that the Japanese were not innocent, they started war with the US by bombing Pearl Harbor without warning and they massacred South East Asia and the region.

Certainly the left on this subject point to the UK/US and allies as the antagonists by using nuclear weapons but they fail to refer to history where Japan were responsible for everything that came to them. Germany had already surrendered, they were warned and they refused to comply with requests for peace even in the face of defeat.

Certainly ask yourself this, would you drop a nuclear weapon on Japan to force the end the war or would you instead send tens of thousands of British soldiers to their certain deaths to fight Japan until they surrendered?
There would have been an estimated 1,000,000 allied casualties in the first week of an invasion of Japan.
The Japanese were on par with the nazis with the rape of Nanking, Bataan death march etc.
 
This is an incredibly difficult subject, one that can only be answered with hindsight where we apply the thinking and moralities of today to that of 76 years ago. 70 years ago we weren't living in relative peace compared to now though, we were living under the threat of daily war and bombings from an aggressor who wanted to kill us and so we had to defend ourselves to survive. It's also ironic that we argue against having nuclear weapons whilst living in a time where they cannot be used by an aggressor because we have them.

I don't think that the US should of dropped the bombs but it's easy to apply this thinking when you only consider the destructive potential of nuclear weapons alone. However, remember that the Japanese were not innocent, they started war with the US by bombing Pearl Harbor without warning and they massacred South East Asia and the region.

Certainly the left on this subject point to the UK/US and allies as the antagonists by using nuclear weapons but they fail to refer to history where Japan were responsible for everything that came to them. Germany had already surrendered, they were warned and they refused to comply with requests for peace even in the face of defeat.

Certainly ask yourself this, would you drop a nuclear weapon on Japan to force the end the war or would you instead send tens of thousands of British soldiers to their certain deaths to fight Japan until they surrendered?
It was the left in the UK that after WW2 thought the UK should have nuclear weapons, defence of the realm was never just a RW thing, the Left were also in favour back then (with a few exceptions)

The Times reported in 1945 "the assertion that the new American bombs brought an end to the war with Japan is a myth. Well before the Bombs were used Emperor Hirohito ha asked Stalin to mediate in a peace deal, thus openly admitting defeat"

A US strategic bombing survey in 1946 stated that the Bombs did not defeat Japan, nor did they persuade Japan to accept unconditional surrender. Japan was brought down by the threat of Russian armies in Manchuria.

Admiral Leahy the US Chief of Staff to President Truman thought another reason that using the bombs was unnecessary was that because of US/UK naval power Japan had no means of importing food.

The US Senate Foreign Committee chairman Arthur Valkenburg is on record as saying "Keep Japan in the war for another three months and we can use the bombs on their cities, we will end the war with the naked fear of all the peoples of the world, who will then bow to our will" Blatant American Imperialism.


Can anyone really justify the use of these dreadful weapons of mass destruction. I will be honest, I went on my first CND march aged 13 and its been a subject I have followed closely over the years because MAD serves no purpose and the amount of money spent on these weapons is obscene. They make Jack Grealish look cheap.
 
WW2 shows why you don't 'fight to the end'. The Nazi's tortured and murdered and raped through east and central Europe. After a couple of invasions, every other country knew they could never trust them not to break every promise and law and act in extreme aggression. And through ceaselessly and single mindedly murdering the Slavs and others, they sowed the seeds for what happened when the red army poured in through the east. Everyone watching understood the threat was as extreme as it got - there were no half measures - their lives depended on a war which could only ever be won by totally destroying every last bit of Nazism. There could be no mercy, they were not rational, they'd never surrender, or if they did, you had to consider that they couldn't be trusted even to act in their own interests, to save themselves. They were snakes, who had repeatedly showed nothing would get in the way of their true desire, to to kill and destroy as many of their enemies as possible. Total war is where the entire country is totally focused on the war effort. This was something even worse, where the Nazis kept chosing to up the stakes, chosing to turn it into a war that for them would only ever end with total obliteration and absolute submission of every enemy by absolutely whatever means neccessary - or with their own utter destruction.

Japan made the same mistake. Kamikaze squadrons, and defending every inch of every Pacific Island beyond any reasonable. They created a martial, nationalistic cult centered around the Emporer, that was designed to make every citizen fight with every last breath, sticks and stones, beyond anything that had been seen before. Quite similar to what happened with Nazism, but somehow the population were even more single minded, perhaps because they were not 'the Nazis who took charge of the state of Germany' - they were simply Japan, the Emporer and his people - an indivisible concept.

It was very believable that the mainland invasion would have been neccessary and resulted in utterly devestating losses. The battles for Pelilau and so on showed how outrageously costly fighting them would be. And it's arguable that the dropping of the Bomb was designed to deter any further aggressors.

We did have unbroken peace. The UN. The rise of stable democracies that provided social security, health care and universal education. Falling crime, falling poverty. And so on.

However, we don't know what would have happened if the Japanese had surrendered either before an invasion, or soon after one. One question that remains is how true it is that every last avenue was pursued in persuading a diplomatic solution. The US believed the Emporer would have to resign to ensure his people ceased waging war - yet (if I've also got this right) they also believed this would never be acceptable. Did they really try to resolve this? Did they speak to everyone they could? There's a World At War episode that deals with this, I believe, as well as other documentaries.

Anyway, I feel very greatful I grew up after this event, and not before it. It is the defining moment that took us from a world of nations locked in wasteful war, to the stability of the second half of C20. The world was watching news reels in Cinemas. After watching years films of military build up, nationalistic and patriotic fervour, stirring and incredibly striking films of the rallies in Nuremberg.... then the footage of the ongoing war, tales of heroism, and the insistent toll on everyone of the casualties and conditions... onto the celebration of VE day.

But what lived with my mother, a young girl at the time, was what came then. The films from the liberation of Bergen Belsen and other concentration camps.

The truth for me is that part of me is glad that the whole thing was ended - and it was witnessed by millions - an explosion and destruction on a scale never before imagined. But as for the reality for the human beings who suffered unimaginably at great length - so many infants and children - I'll never really understand how it was viewed as 'acceptable'.

From Dr Strangelove, to Terminator Two. Tales of the true horror of the bomb were never far away from the screen when I was growing up. Penderecki's Threnody For The Victims Of Hiroshima was used to take us into the essence of murderous madness in The Shining. David Lynch used Penderecki many times over, most recently in Episode 8 of Twin Peaks The Return. This abstract and wordless sequence forms the middle episode 8, and is seen as as close as we will ever come to a Twin Peaks origin story - A madness escaped from the bomb. Which, you may say, was what Penderecki was illustrating.
Something so beyond human comprehension and compassion. We live in a world where we can, with a single thimble of atoms, destroy more than can be imagined, kill many millions, and create more suffering than could destroy the world. We already have done so, because the horror of war as it was waged, the torture and murder and gruesome sick treatment of humans, had become intolerable, inexplicable, and it had happened on a scale no-one could really fathom. You're one person, but you know how much YOU can suffer. Multiply it by a hundred thousand, a million. Children, mothers, people in childbirth. One teaspoon of atoms can wipe them out with the only traces being those left to suffer beyond comprehension, for days, weeks, months, years to come.

And tomorrow, you will get up, and carry on, as if nothing ever happened.

 
WW2 shows why you don't 'fight to the end'. The Nazi's tortured and murdered and raped through east and central Europe. After a couple of invasions, every other country knew they could never trust them not to break every promise and law and act in extreme aggression. And through ceaselessly and single mindedly murdering the Slavs and others, they sowed the seeds for what happened when the red army poured in through the east. Everyone watching understood the threat was as extreme as it got - there were no half measures - their lives depended on a war which could only ever be won by totally destroying every last bit of Nazism. There could be no mercy, they were not rational, they'd never surrender, or if they did, you had to consider that they couldn't be trusted even to act in their own interests, to save themselves. They were snakes, who had repeatedly showed nothing would get in the way of their true desire, to to kill and destroy as many of their enemies as possible. Total war is where the entire country is totally focused on the war effort. This was something even worse, where the Nazis kept chosing to up the stakes, chosing to turn it into a war that for them would only ever end with total obliteration and absolute submission of every enemy by absolutely whatever means neccessary - or with their own utter destruction.

Japan made the same mistake. Kamikaze squadrons, and defending every inch of every Pacific Island beyond any reasonable. They created a martial, nationalistic cult centered around the Emporer, that was designed to make every citizen fight with every last breath, sticks and stones, beyond anything that had been seen before. Quite similar to what happened with Nazism, but somehow the population were even more single minded, perhaps because they were not 'the Nazis who took charge of the state of Germany' - they were simply Japan, the Emporer and his people - an indivisible concept.

It was very believable that the mainland invasion would have been neccessary and resulted in utterly devestating losses. The battles for Pelilau and so on showed how outrageously costly fighting them would be. And it's arguable that the dropping of the Bomb was designed to deter any further aggressors.

We did have unbroken peace. The UN. The rise of stable democracies that provided social security, health care and universal education. Falling crime, falling poverty. And so on.

However, we don't know what would have happened if the Japanese had surrendered either before an invasion, or soon after one. One question that remains is how true it is that every last avenue was pursued in persuading a diplomatic solution. The US believed the Emporer would have to resign to ensure his people ceased waging war - yet (if I've also got this right) they also believed this would never be acceptable. Did they really try to resolve this? Did they speak to everyone they could? There's a World At War episode that deals with this, I believe, as well as other documentaries.

Anyway, I feel very greatful I grew up after this event, and not before it. It is the defining moment that took us from a world of nations locked in wasteful war, to the stability of the second half of C20. The world was watching news reels in Cinemas. After watching years films of military build up, nationalistic and patriotic fervour, stirring and incredibly striking films of the rallies in Nuremberg.... then the footage of the ongoing war, tales of heroism, and the insistent toll on everyone of the casualties and conditions... onto the celebration of VE day.

But what lived with my mother, a young girl at the time, was what came then. The films from the liberation of Bergen Belsen and other concentration camps.

The truth for me is that part of me is glad that the whole thing was ended - and it was witnessed by millions - an explosion and destruction on a scale never before imagined. But as for the reality for the human beings who suffered unimaginably at great length - so many infants and children - I'll never really understand how it was viewed as 'acceptable'.

From Dr Strangelove, to Terminator Two. Tales of the true horror of the bomb were never far away from the screen when I was growing up. Penderecki's Threnody For The Victims Of Hiroshima was used to take us into the essence of murderous madness in The Shining. David Lynch used Penderecki many times over, most recently in Episode 8 of Twin Peaks The Return. This abstract and wordless sequence forms the middle episode 8, and is seen as as close as we will ever come to a Twin Peaks origin story - A madness escaped from the bomb. Which, you may say, was what Penderecki was illustrating.
Something so beyond human comprehension and compassion. We live in a world where we can, with a single thimble of atoms, destroy more than can be imagined, kill many millions, and create more suffering than could destroy the world. We already have done so, because the horror of war as it was waged, the torture and murder and gruesome sick treatment of humans, had become intolerable, inexplicable, and it had happened on a scale no-one could really fathom. You're one person, but you know how much YOU can suffer. Multiply it by a hundred thousand, a million. Children, mothers, people in childbirth. One teaspoon of atoms can wipe them out with the only traces being those left to suffer beyond comprehension, for days, weeks, months, years to come.

And tomorrow, you will get up, and carry on, as if nothing ever happened.


Great post. One of the best I have read on Bluemoon for ages.
Very concise and thought provoking.
Perfectly sums up the horror of war, and the bestial deeds that befell the world in the first half of the 20th century.
 
Remove the propaganda and remember how our troops were treated by the Japanese army. I have absolutely no sympathy for them. Many poor soldiers died of malnutrition or were murdered whilst held as prisoners.

End of.
There were British and British Empire prisoners of war who weren’t held as prisoners by the Japanese, they were made to be slaves to build railways, not fed or given any hydration, were made to work in the sunshine naked or almost naked (purposely for no sun protection), were worked until they died after which they were tossed in body pits… others who didn’t die were tortured and held in cages that would be too small for kittens.
 
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