How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Were there not threads on boards all over the place twenty years ago about how shite the EU was? Despite the fact we were members at the time?

Don’t mistake debate about how shite Brexit has been for a lack of acceptance that it’s happened and isn’t being reversed.

It’s the defining political decision of the 21st century. Why shouldn’t people who opposed it talk about how wank it’s been? That’s a perfectly normal human response.

And since it’s happened, I’m sure any bona fide benefits from sources other than the usual contributors to this thread would be genuinely welcome.

No one is precluded from pointing the realised benefits out.

I’m all ears.

 

[inbetween]

The arguments on the EU fall apart given the fact that the EU market is not growing. Germany has not grown at all for nearly 2 years and actually not a single top 5 EU country has truly grown beyond 1% for a decade! So why is EU membership so important? Why should we harmonise ourselves to a market that currently offers us nothing?

Unfortunately the growth in the world lies elsewhere and the real problem is the EU is hopelessly positioned to take advantage of it. It is too slow to keep pace and as a political entity it is naturally always going to tie itself up in regulation and obsession over red tape. This has meant that European businesses are rapidly becoming uncompetitive.

There are nutters on here who continually bang on about how it would be better to be in the single market because then we'd all have the same rules etc but why does it matter? Rules do not create business or innovation, we'd be better off without any of it. It recently took the EU 5+ years to agree and then impose a standard of USB plug for mobile devices but who on here actually gives a toss when the product price goes up 10% as a result?

The best thing that the EU can do is tear itself up and put competitiveness back on the menu, give people something to hope for and a livelihood to work towards. That may even mean yes trading freely with the UK despite the UK not being part of its rules club.

It won't do this though and unfortunately the trajectory otherwise is to proceed with further decades of flat, dead stagnation whilst the working classes and their livelihoods continue to be swallowed up by the exports and fruits of the relentless Chinese growth machine. And we wonder why the populist right and anti-establishment is growing in stature?

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

The arguments on the EU fall apart given the fact that the EU market is not growing. Germany has not grown at all for nearly 2 years and actually not a single top 5 EU country has truly grown beyond 1% for a decade! So why is EU membership so important? Why should we harmonise ourselves to a market that currently offers us nothing?

Absolutely preposterous paragraph. Because it’s not grown as previously for a period it thereby offers us ‘nothing’? That’s your basis for any arguments supporting more integration with the EU ‘falling apart’?

It’s a ridiculous line of argument.

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

Absolutely preposterous paragraph. Because it’s not grown as previously for a period it thereby offers us ‘nothing’? That’s your basis for any arguments supporting more integration with the EU ‘falling apart’?

It’s a ridiculous line of argument.

It’s the only argument out there as there’s nothing else to crow about.

 

[hilts]

A bit of revisionism there. I seem to recall lots of posters saying (of voting Leave) "We knew what we were voting for" but you're now arguing that they are not to blame - because they didn't know what they were voting for!

Its almost like you can't put 52% or 48% of people into one group who all have exactly the same ideas to the last detail.

Who knew.

 

[hilts]

I rarely comment on this thread as I know it's mostly occupied with posters who can't accept what happened and have convinced themselves Brexit was the end of their world as they knew it. I realise I won't change their view or stop them complaining as the thread was specifically set up for them to moan about Brexit.

I just like to offer an alternative more positive view point. Anyway I feel its time to leave them to it.

If ever there was a thread that proves time isn't always a great healer this is it.

 

[Palerider]

I think it's this simple.
The EU is basically the creation of a USA/USSR (big, big state) in Europe. It's great for people who think that their own country is run by inept politicians and would therefore rather be ruled over by those much more sensible European politicians and have safety in numbers. However, many people would much rather run their own business and take their chances on the success or failure of that business based on their own efforts (small state). Many of us just do not want layer upon layer of rule makers telling us what is good for us, we can decide that ourselves.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

If ever there was a thread that proves time isn't always a great healer this is it.

Surely that’s the United thread!

 

[hilts]

Were there not threads on boards all over the place twenty years ago about how shite the EU was? Despite the fact we were members at the time?

Don’t mistake debate about how shite Brexit has been for a lack of acceptance that it’s happened and isn’t being reversed.

It’s the defining political decision of the 21st century. Why shouldn’t people who opposed it talk about how wank it’s been? That’s a perfectly normal human response.

And since it’s happened, I’m sure any bona fide benefits from sources other than the usual contributors to this thread would be genuinely welcome.

No one is precluded from pointing the realised benefits out.

I’m all ears.

You don’t offer any viewpoint. You play devil’s advocate and WUM the thread.

Unfortunately as mentioned previously some posters are so bigoted in their view that anyone not agreeing with them on their echo chamber thread has to be a wum.
For too many posters it's a place to vent and nothing else. I'm not sure debate is

Brexit has worsened the economy over and over and over again, day in day out, year in year out is of any use whatsoever.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

The idea of a “United States of Europe” has roots in various historical proposals for European unity.

Early concepts emerged from thinkers like William Penn in the late 17th century and Charles de Saint-Pierre in the early 18th century, advocating for cooperation among European states to prevent wars. Victor Hugo famously popularized the term in 1849, envisioning a European federation akin to the United States of America.

Post-World War II, Winston Churchill revived this concept in 1946, emphasizing unity as essential for peace and stability in Europe.

Therefore, the 21st century concept of the EU was long in the making, and has served its primary purpose. However, with the advent of unforeseen unfettered cross-border migration, it was only a matter of time before an economic crisis created an “others” mentality and for nationalism, no matter how watered down to make it palatable, to rear its ugly head.

Brexit was always going to be a political hot potato, by design, because change is often difficult, so one side had to make it a “hot” issue to achieve that change.

Now that Brexit has been realized, it feels like some people need to move on and figure out a way for it to work best with our allies and trading partners, be they close neighbors or not. It seems like close neighbor trading partners help keep costs down, but if it comes with vindictive caveats, then any nation is bound to reject such caveats and move forward with others, even at some cost.

No country should have to genuflect for another, especially a supposed ally nation or group of nations.