How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

[Postman Pep]

 

[feedmpenzaandhewillscore]

Brexit blow: exports to Japan slump after ‘landmark’ free trade deal

First such accord after leaving EU was predicted to bring £15bn boost but UK now lags rivals

www.theguardian.com

They would be lining up to do a deal with us they said.

 

[Saddleworth2]

play a full part in the Capitalist construct that will perhaps one day lead to an EU state and the watering down of British democracy to what would be possibly be at best a regional tier of government.

though I agree on the point of ‘watering down…British democracy’ (albeit I’m less sure what that means under this Government).

what is this British democracy we speak of? It is a Union of four countries that is governed depending on which party the largest country votes for. Fair enough if the politics of those four countries are well aligned but for decades they haven't been.

it might also prevent Scotland leaving the Union, a move which would be another unwelcome economic hit for all involved.

I don't believe that would be a major factor really. Apathy and fear of the unknown will be far more telling.

 

[blueparrot]

Brexit blow: exports to Japan slump after ‘landmark’ free trade deal

First such accord after leaving EU was predicted to bring £15bn boost but UK now lags rivals

www.theguardian.com

They would be lining up to do a deal with us they said.

They probably were when they knew we were sending Truss in to do deals, they couldn’t wait to get one over on us.

 

[Gabriel]

what is this British democracy we speak of? It is a Union of four countries that is governed depending on which party the largest country votes for. Fair enough if the politics of those four countries are well aligned but for decades they haven't been.

I don't believe that would be a major factor really. Apathy and fear of the unknown will be far more telling.

Those points reflect the inside Scotland perspective, understandably, but my point was more about democracy in general. The proroguing of Parliament and the way this Government, and its forerunner, have behaved are hardly conducive to democratic governance. Similarly, by apathy and fear of the unknown, I suspect you mean amongst the Scottish electorate. Again, however, I was referring more to Westminster. The Conservatives, through their Brexit, have done enormous (perhaps irreparable) damage to the UK economy, so in that light they will hold Scotland in the Union as long as they can; the economic damage of disunion would also have a considerable impact on rUK and it simply cannot afford that. People only talk about the damage it ‘will’ do to Scotland, but if Brexit has told us anything, it is that everyone is affected by such breaks and that notions of superiority are only that, notions.

 

[Rascal]

It could be political suicide but that may largely depend on just how long the country is prepared to accept not only the economic pain but also the social pain that ensues. That pain has barely started and the continued loss in trade means continued lost taxes and that means even further cuts to public services are inevitable. No number of small deals will compensate for the staggering amount of GDP that has been lost, and every other country knows that this UK Government is now desperate for any deal- see Australia, especially after big prize of a US deal died, so they will strike as hard a bargain as possible.

The EU is a long-term project, so it would set certain expectations but would not be punitive; it wants the UK back in and welcoming it back in a penitent state would suffice, though the UK would not have it as good as before. The UK would probably have to commit to joining the Euro, but that is a movable feast- see Sweden. Similarly, it might have to commit to joining Schengen, but Ireland still isn’t part of it either, so that would be another point of discussion. It’s already part of a ‘Capitalist construct’, however, so I’m not sure that in itself would be radically novel, though I agree on the point of ‘watering down…British democracy’ (albeit I’m less sure what that means under this Government).

I sense that the UK will try to move toward a Swiss-style position first, which would not require a referendum, and then see how relations develop. That would certainly not be political suicide and could ‘simply’ be explained as renegotiating the botched terms by which the right-wing Conservatives severed ties. If successful, it might also prevent Scotland leaving the Union, a move which would be another unwelcome economic hit for all involved.

I think we both agree there are a lot of uncertainties to consider and that is before the pro Brexit media ratchet up the hysteria and propaganda

At the time of the referendum, I made a point that remain offered no vision for the future, leave did. Remain offered the status quo leave offered more. If and I still think it's a huge if re-joining became a possibility, then the re-join camp would have to offer a vision for the future that was not a return to the status quo.

 

[The perfect fumble]

I think we both agree there are a lot of uncertainties to consider and that is before the pro Brexit media ratchet up the hysteria and propaganda

At the time of the referendum, I made a point that remain offered no vision for the future, leave did. Remain offered the status quo leave offered more. If and I still think it's a huge if re-joining became a possibility, then the re-join camp would have to offer a vision for the future that was not a return to the status quo.

I disagree.

If we could snap our fingers and return to our pre 2016 status then there might be a chance, but the price of rejoining now would be to sign up for the European Project of greater integration, and that's a non starter for far too many.

Remain had no vision because the vision was a closer union and they didn't want that, and even if they had they couldn't sell it. To get there we need a new generation, this generation are beginning to regret leaving it'll need the next to start the long march back.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Those points reflect the inside Scotland perspective, understandably, but my point was more about democracy in general. The proroguing of Parliament and the way this Government, and its forerunner, have behaved are hardly conducive to democratic governance. Similarly, by apathy and fear of the unknown, I suspect you mean amongst the Scottish electorate. Again, however, I was referring more to Westminster. The Conservatives, through their Brexit, have done enormous (perhaps irreparable) damage to the UK economy, so in that light they will hold Scotland in the Union as long as they can; the economic damage of disunion would also have a considerable impact on rUK and it simply cannot afford that. People only talk about the damage it ‘will’ do to Scotland, but if Brexit has told us anything, it is that everyone is affected by such breaks and that notions of superiority are only that, notions.

You make good points and forgive me for being parochial.
On a wider basis, UK Democracy is fundamentally flawed by institutions like The House of Lords, the first past the post system that makes millions of constituency votes redundant and a complete absence of checks and balances that mean once you have a majority you can do what the hell you like.

There is a complete absence in this country of holding a government to account for anything. Just take a look at the Conservative manifesto of 2019. Their promise to the country:

• Extra funding for the NHS, with 50,000 more nurses and 50 million more GP surgery appointments a year.​

• 20,000 more police and tougher sentencing for criminals.​

• An Australian-style points-based system to control immigration.​

• Millions more invested every week in science, schools, apprenticeships and infrastructure while controlling debt.​

• Reaching Net Zero by 2050 with investment in clean energy solutions and green infrastructure to reduce carbon emissions and pollution.​

• We will not raise the rate of income tax, VAT or National Insurance.​

• We Will Put You First​

• Getting Brexit done. Investing in our public services and infrastructure. Supporting workers and families. Strengthening the Union. Unleashing Britain’s potential.​

Yes its vague as hell in some areas but in others its measurable. When do you ever hear anyone referring to their delivery record against this in the media. Maybe an independent 'fact checker' body should keep the score for every government and make sure its published as a health warning during each new GE campaign. You know like after a Tory PPB you could have a voice that says, 'by independent measurement, voting for Tory may ruin the economy and be a serious risk to your health and wellbeing'.
I shouldn't be flippant about such a serious point I know.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I disagree.

If we could snap our fingers and return to our pre 2016 status then there might be a chance, but the price of rejoining now would be to sign up for the European Project of greater integration, and that's a non starter for far too many.

Remain had no vision because the vision was a closer union and they didn't want that, and even if they had they couldn't sell it. To get there we need a new generation, this generation are beginning to regret leaving it'll need the next to start the long march back.

If nobody ever explains what a closer Union in Europe means then nobody will ever have the chance to want it. The chances of the subject ever getting a grown up conversation in this country are nil thanks to our idiot politicians and supine/biased media.

 

[goalmole]

You make good points and forgive me for being parochial.
On a wider basis, UK Democracy is fundamentally flawed by institutions like The House of Lords, the first past the post system that makes millions of constituency votes redundant and a complete absence of checks and balances that mean once you have a majority you can do what the hell you like.

There is a complete absence in this country of holding a government to account for anything. Just take a look at the Conservative manifesto of 2019. Their promise to the country:

• Extra funding for the NHS, with 50,000 more nurses and 50 million more GP surgery appointments a year.​

• 20,000 more police and tougher sentencing for criminals.​

• An Australian-style points-based system to control immigration.​

• Millions more invested every week in science, schools, apprenticeships and infrastructure while controlling debt.​

• Reaching Net Zero by 2050 with investment in clean energy solutions and green infrastructure to reduce carbon emissions and pollution.​

• We will not raise the rate of income tax, VAT or National Insurance.​

• We Will Put You First​

• Getting Brexit done. Investing in our public services and infrastructure. Supporting workers and families. Strengthening the Union. Unleashing Britain’s potential.​

Yes its vague as hell in some areas but in others its measurable. When do you ever hear anyone referring to their delivery record against this in the media. Maybe an independent 'fact checker' body should keep the score for every government and make sure its published as a health warning during each new GE campaign. You know like after a Tory PPB you could have a voice that says, 'by independent measurement, voting for Tory may ruin the economy and be a serious risk to your health and wellbeing'.
I shouldn't be flippant about such a serious point I know.

The electorate is the body that should be holding the performance of the government to account at each GE, if they knew what they had voted for in the first place.