How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

west didsblue said:
If it makes you happy and stops you fixating on this non-issue, should this implausible situation occur I would regret my vote. However it doesn’t stop it being a ludicrous question because there is absolutely no prospect of it being an economic success in 5 years. Most leavers have settled on a timeframe of 20-40 years for it to be a success. Not even Farage, Mogg or Johnson have suggested it will be sunlit uplands in 5 years. Now do you get it?

Thanks for confirming that you’d be scared of losing. If Brexit was so great you’d have had nothing to fear about a vote 4 years after the first one where people have a chance to revisit their opinion. We get a vote for a new government in similar timeframes so following your logic we’d have a PM for life.

No idea what you’re on about. Parliament gave us a vote and voted overwhelmingly to implement the vote. The fact it was remain dominated is not only irrelevant but proof that most MPs went along with it for the sake of democracy even if they thought it was crap. We’ve had a leave dominated government since July 2019 and they’ve failed us all.

It’s you who’s all over the place. Why would I be bothered about the manifesto of one very small minority party?

Not sure what your point is. If you think that Brexit was going to bring about some sort of Communist utopia where everyone gets treated the same irrespective of their personal abilities you’re utterly deluded. Brexit has done the exact opposite reducing everyone’s opportunities apart from the super rich.

I’m blaming the likes of you for fucking up my country and making it a place where my children have less opportunities than they would have had as part of the world’s largest trading bloc. One that the Brexit cheerleader in chief is encouraging Ukraine to join as soon as it can.
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I'll let you have the last word! Very well argued and thanks for answering my question. It was important, I had a verbal debate with one of my Remainer friends recently where he was huge on the economy similar to you. I argued that the remain campaign should have concentrated on the peace, friendship, mutual cooperation etc founding principles of the EU rather than the 'project fear' economic damage stuff. He would not have it at all.
 
Palerider said:
I'll let you have the last word! Very well argued and thanks for answering my question. It was important, I had a verbal debate with one of my Remainer friends recently where he was huge on the economy similar to you. I argued that the remain campaign should have concentrated on the peace, friendship, mutual cooperation etc founding principles of the EU rather than the 'project fear' economic damage stuff. He would not have it at all.
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He probably wouldn’t have it because it’s literally meaningless guff.
 
Palerider said:
Did you trust Cameron and Osborne your remain leaders? Did you believe their every word?
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They were certainly not my Remain leaders. My mind was made up all by myself in the early seventies when I campaigned for us to join what was then known as the Common Market. I could see what the benefits were on the inside rather than outside like now. Can you tell me how long it will be before we see the sunlit uplands. Rees Smug reckons it could be 50 years, I cannot wait that long.
 
old blue said:
They were certainly not my Remain leaders. My mind was made up all by myself in the early seventies when I campaigned for us to join what was then known as the Common Market. I could see what the benefits were on the inside rather than outside like now. Can you tell me how long it will be before we see the sunlit uplands. Rees Smug reckons it could be 50 years, I cannot wait that long.
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You guys. You make me laugh, really, you do. How many economic forecasts from 2016 have proven correct? How many remainers predicted an average EU inflation rate of of over 10% in 2022? The answer to your question is I don't know how long it will be before you see sunlit uplands with unicorns and magic money trees and children playing in a world full of peace and love. If you want me to guess, I'll say never. Let me guess again, sunlit uplands was on another bus and, just like you believe everything Cameron and Osborne say, leavers believe everything on a bus, right?
 
NI Protocol solved!! The EU suggested a fix in 2021 by having two lanes, one for goods staying in NI and one for goods going south. Flatly rejected by Johnson. Guess what we have come up with?? Yes you have guessed but will be trumpeted as a win by us getting the Protocol changed when in fact all we have done is come up with a way to implement. Wait for the news to be twisted by our lot.
 
Didsbury Dave said:
He probably wouldn’t have it because it’s literally meaningless guff.
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You did lose the referendum you know. A little humility, a deep breath and look at my advice again. If you keep doing the same things then how do you expect to change the result?
 
Palerider said:
You guys. You make me laugh, really, you do. How many economic forecasts from 2016 have proven correct? How many remainers predicted an average EU inflation rate of of over 10% in 2022? The answer to your question is I don't know how long it will be before you see sunlit uplands with unicorns and magic money trees and children playing in a world full of peace and love. If you want me to guess, I'll say never. Let me guess again, sunlit uplands was on another bus and, just like you believe everything Cameron and Osborne say, leavers believe everything on a bus, right?
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I am glad my reply made you laugh. I think you missed the point about Cameron and Osborne where have I ever championed the gruesome two-some. Methinks you are confusing me with a Tory supporter.
 
It is quite telling that economically both sides of the debate argued for the same thing, the continuation of neo liberalism.

The question posed by the ballot was a simple “In or Out”. But, as with most instances within democracy, this could not be answered so straightforwardly. What the ballot really asked is this: would we prefer to be in a capitalist Britain inside the capitalist EU; or a capitalist Britain outside the capitalist EU?

When Britain voted to remain a member of the European Economic Community in 1975, the trade union movement and Labour Left campaigned against membership. They argued, correctly, that the EEC was a “bosses club” that would benefit European big business and banking interests at the expense of European workers. This appeared very plainly to the British Left, as the EEC was essentially a free-trade area established to integrate the European economy into a single bloc that could rival the United States and the Soviet Union. In the game of inter-imperialist competition, the workers always lose. I do not think anyone can argue that the workers lost since joining the EU, yes there were some sops but inequality has rose exponentially. There is no doubt in my mind that since the beginning of the capitalist crisis in 2008 the institutions at the heart of the EU – the European Commission and the European Central Bank – have shown their true colours by imposing capitalist austerity across Europe. Look at how they destroyed Greece for instance. Its a capitalist club.

Above all else, we need a socialist transformation of society by the working class. The EU is just as much of a corrupt, big-business-run institution as our very own government of the rich. Socialism will not come from internal reforms. Neither will it be any closer with Britain's withdrawal from the EU. Breaking with the EU was not the goal , its the break with capitalism. The red wall seats saw this, they were not the racist xenophobes the liberal remain camp extolled them to be, they just wanted fairness. I will say though that the far right did indeed play on peoples fears about immigration and Farage's disgusting poster may have been pivotal in gaining the small percentage of racist halfwits.

Remain fucked up because of the arrogant notion that capitalism knows best, they never challenged the status quo.
 
old blue said:
I am glad my reply made you laugh. I think you missed the point about Cameron and Osborne where have I ever championed the gruesome two-some. Methinks you are confusing me with a Tory supporter.
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No, I know you are not a Tory, I was teasing as you brought up Truss, Rees Mogg etc in your responses. Incidentally, I'm a Labour voter myself but know and like many tories, they are not bad people! In fact, back to brexit, my brothers and myself had many lively discussions pre the referendum. We ended up with a full set, I voted Leave, one brother voted Remain, another brother could not makeup his mind so abstained, and yet another brother could not care less and didn't vote.
 
Rascal said:
It is quite telling that economically both sides of the debate argued for the same thing, the continuation of neo liberalism.

The question posed by the ballot was a simple “In or Out”. But, as with most instances within democracy, this could not be answered so straightforwardly. What the ballot really asked is this: would we prefer to be in a capitalist Britain inside the capitalist EU; or a capitalist Britain outside the capitalist EU?

When Britain voted to remain a member of the European Economic Community in 1975, the trade union movement and Labour Left campaigned against membership. They argued, correctly, that the EEC was a “bosses club” that would benefit European big business and banking interests at the expense of European workers. This appeared very plainly to the British Left, as the EEC was essentially a free-trade area established to integrate the European economy into a single bloc that could rival the United States and the Soviet Union. In the game of inter-imperialist competition, the workers always lose. I do not think anyone can argue that the workers lost since joining the EU, yes there were some sops but inequality has rose exponentially. There is no doubt in my mind that since the beginning of the capitalist crisis in 2008 the institutions at the heart of the EU – the European Commission and the European Central Bank – have shown their true colours by imposing capitalist austerity across Europe. Look at how they destroyed Greece for instance. Its a capitalist club.

Above all else, we need a socialist transformation of society by the working class. The EU is just as much of a corrupt, big-business-run institution as our very own government of the rich. Socialism will not come from internal reforms. Neither will it be any closer with Britain's withdrawal from the EU. Breaking with the EU was not the goal , its the break with capitalism. The red wall seats saw this, they were not the racist xenophobes the liberal remain camp extolled them to be, they just wanted fairness. I will say though that the far right did indeed play on peoples fears about immigration and Farage's disgusting poster may have been pivotal in gaining the small percentage of racist halfwits.

Remain fucked up because of the arrogant notion that capitalism knows best, they never challenged the status quo.
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How interesting. I think you have articulated what I believe in but I'll need to think about it and probably respond further tomorrow.
 
Rascal said:
It is quite telling that economically both sides of the debate argued for the same thing, the continuation of neo liberalism.

The question posed by the ballot was a simple “In or Out”. But, as with most instances within democracy, this could not be answered so straightforwardly. What the ballot really asked is this: would we prefer to be in a capitalist Britain inside the capitalist EU; or a capitalist Britain outside the capitalist EU?

When Britain voted to remain a member of the European Economic Community in 1975, the trade union movement and Labour Left campaigned against membership. They argued, correctly, that the EEC was a “bosses club” that would benefit European big business and banking interests at the expense of European workers. This appeared very plainly to the British Left, as the EEC was essentially a free-trade area established to integrate the European economy into a single bloc that could rival the United States and the Soviet Union. In the game of inter-imperialist competition, the workers always lose. I do not think anyone can argue that the workers lost since joining the EU, yes there were some sops but inequality has rose exponentially. There is no doubt in my mind that since the beginning of the capitalist crisis in 2008 the institutions at the heart of the EU – the European Commission and the European Central Bank – have shown their true colours by imposing capitalist austerity across Europe. Look at how they destroyed Greece for instance. Its a capitalist club.

Above all else, we need a socialist transformation of society by the working class. The EU is just as much of a corrupt, big-business-run institution as our very own government of the rich. Socialism will not come from internal reforms. Neither will it be any closer with Britain's withdrawal from the EU. Breaking with the EU was not the goal , its the break with capitalism. The red wall seats saw this, they were not the racist xenophobes the liberal remain camp extolled them to be, they just wanted fairness. I will say though that the far right did indeed play on peoples fears about immigration and Farage's disgusting poster may have been pivotal in gaining the small percentage of racist halfwits.

Remain fucked up because of the arrogant notion that capitalism knows best, they never challenged the status quo.
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Interesting, but do you not think our membership of the EU prevented the worst excesses of far right policies being foistered on us?

I think Europe is more socialist in its outloook than here in the UK, especially now the tory party has been hi-jacked by far right refugees from the BNP and UKIP, and my argument for our continued membership of the EU was based on it safeguarding our basic rights like the NHS, environmental, consumer, and employement protections.

Those protections are now being discarded by the supposed bonfire of EU laws by our government. It's not clear at the moment if those acts of parliament will succeed in passing into law as they weren't in the last manifesto and the House of Lords might block them, but the reform bill regarding the NHS, which our membership of the EU guaranteed as a free at the source of need healthcare system was voted away last year. It's something the tories have always begruged us, and it's a bill that couldn't have been passed if we had still been members of the EU.

I always thought the EU was a safe community and I enjoyed the benefits it brought us.I failed to understand why we in the UK, or sections of it at least, were so opposed to it our soverereignty was being compromised. I never heard those arguments from the French, Gemans, or any other nationalities that are presumably just as patriotic about their countries as we are but haven't had their heads turned sideways by a lifetime of anti EU rhetoric from a right wing press owned by billionairs.

I remember talking to a German guy a few months before the referendum, and I asked him what he thought membership of the EU brought. 'Look', he said, 'We all know the history of Europe in the last century, and if it prevents that from happening again, to me, that is priceless'.

The big red bus was running around at that time promoting £350 million a week to the NHS, and Farage was proudly standing in front of his poster showing lines of immigrants supposedly heading for the UK.

I'm not anti profit, we all have to make money, but I do have a sense of loss a fairer vision of the world has been taken from us for no gain whatsoever other than the rich getting richer. The EU isn't perfect, our political system at the moment is dreadfully corrupt and dishonest, but we did have the backing of EU laws which myriad governments around the continent regarded as being fair and proper.
 
NPBlue said:
Interesting, but do you not think our membership of the EU prevented the worst excesses of far right policies being foistered on us?

I think Europe is more socialist in its outloook than here in the UK, especially now the tory party has been hi-jacked by far right refugees from the BNP and UKIP, and my argument for our continued membership of the EU was based on it safeguarding our basic rights like the NHS, environmental, consumer, and employement protections.

Those protections are now being discarded by the supposed bonfire of EU laws by our government. It's not clear at the moment if those acts of parliament will succeed in passing into law as they weren't in the last manifesto and the House of Lords might block them, but the reform bill regarding the NHS, which our membership of the EU guaranteed as a free at the source of need healthcare system was voted away last year. It's something the tories have always begruged us, and it's a bill that couldn't have been passed if we had still been members of the EU.

I always thought the EU was a safe community and I enjoyed the benefits it brought us.I failed to understand why we in the UK, or sections of it at least, were so opposed to it our soverereignty was being compromised. I never heard those arguments from the French, Gemans, or any other nationalities that are presumably just as patriotic about their countries as we are but haven't had their heads turned sideways by a lifetime of anti EU rhetoric from a right wing press owned by billionairs.

I remember talking to a German guy a few months before the referendum, and I asked him what he thought membership of the EU brought. 'Look', he said, 'We all know the history of Europe in the last century, and if it prevents that from happening again, to me, that is priceless'.

The big red bus was running around at that time promoting £350 million a week to the NHS, and Farage was proudly standing in front of his poster showing lines of immigrants supposedly heading for the UK.

I'm not anti profit, we all have to make money, but I do have a sense of loss a fairer vision of the world has been taken from us for no gain whatsoever other than the rich getting richer. The EU isn't perfect, our political system at the moment is dreadfully corrupt and dishonest, but we did have the backing of EU laws which myriad governments around the continent regarded as being fair and proper.
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And that is a superb counter argument, thanks.

We needed to leave under a left wing government, leaving under the current crop of halfwits and extremists has damaged the country and allowed what you state to come to pass.
 
Palerider said:
I've no problem with Europe or Europeans. I just do not want currently to be a part of a European political project. Surely it cannot be right that the power in a fair political project is held by those with the biggest purse strings? That's back to the middle ages.
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The UK was a player - now it's out of the game.
 
Palerider said:
The short answer is 'Yes'. The long answer is that most hard line Remainers just do not get it. For many leavers it is just a matter of principle and it would take a lot more than 4% GDP to change those principles.
Now you, if in say 5 years time it turns out that leaving really was a great idea economically would you regret your Remain vote?
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"IF" is a very big word.
I was happy with the status quo.
We had the ongoing benefits now, not 5,10, or even 30 years down the line.
Who can guarantee that you, me or anyone else will still be alive in 5 years anyway?
 
Palerider said:
Still not answered my question. You really are now wriggling like a Tory MP in an interview. Wriggle, wriggle. Go on admit it "It's all about the money".

There was nothing wrong with a second, third, fourth referendum asking us more detailed questions on preferences each time. The issue was putting Remain back on the ballot as a choice. We had already answered that question and the fact that only Remainers were calling for Remain to be put back on the ballot tells you that it was about selfish self interest.
Bercow. Irrelevant to you maybe but not to me and millions of leavers. Just my opinion.

Misunderstanding. I was talking about Parliament voting overwhelmingly to give us a referendum in the first place. A Remain dominated Parliament at that.

Lib Dems were never going to win is a matter of opinion? Leave were never going to win? Labour were all over the place and ended up with Leavers and Remainers not trusting them. The fact is that a Remain dominated major UK party thought it was ok to just ignore a democratic referendum decision and you are not bothered? Would you have been more bothered if it was the other way around?

EU winner. I think that the EU favours the academically gifted who can pass exams and then get the contacts and best job opportunities (bit like Tories again). Those less academically gifted are treated as a sub species (Stupid, Racist, Xenophobic, need to listen to their betters, move where labour is required and serve those Capuccinos and wipe our parents arses whilst we go on our holiday).

I'm not blaming anyone for any of my decisions. My life, my decisions and I will live with the consequences. Let's not forget that this thread is created as a sort of 'let's take the piss out of the thick brexiters' thread so it's fair you get some back? That moral high ground you think you are standing on is not that high at all.
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The original referendum was ADVISORY.
Somewhere along the line it changed from that to being a result set in stone.
That was the moment when there should have been more facts presented and what sort of Brexit people would find acceptable.
The original vote should have had a requirement of a certain percentage of voters voting to leave, say 65%, not the thin 52-48% close call.
So everything possible was done to enable leave to 'win'' FOR WHAT REASON?!
And now we are where we are...
 
Rascal said:
And that is a superb counter argument, thanks.

We needed to leave under a left wing government, leaving under the current crop of halfwits and extremists has damaged the country and allowed what you state to come to pass.
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So it was wrong to vote leave in 2016?
 
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