How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

hcblue95 said:
3 brexit loons in one panel. Not exactly impartial is it.
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There are probably 2 problems with rectifying that

1/ getting a remainer to go on as a lone voice so the rest of the panel and the host can try and shout them down
2/ as its all going to shit keep adopting the attitude "never interrupt your enemy whilst he is making a mistake"
 
What is most telling about this echo-chamber of a thread, is the prevailing wholesale absence of a single pro-Leave poster with a remotely cogent retrospective counterpoint to the argument to remain.

I know that Brexiteers will lurk on here, and many will shake their heads at the bourgeois metropolitan attitudes contained therein, but not one of them has the confidence of their convictions to post any evidence based words about the merit of their decision to leave the EU.

Doesn’t that speak volumes?

Surely there must be a poster out there who can articulate this.

And if not, why not?…
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
What is most telling about this echo-chamber of a thread, is the prevailing wholesale absence of a single pro-Leave poster with a remotely cogent retrospective counterpoint to the argument to remain.

I know that Brexiteers will lurk on here, and many will shake their heads at the bourgeois metropolitan attitudes, but not one of them has the confidence of their convictions to post any evidence based words about the merit of their decision to leave the EU.

Doesn’t that speak volumes?

Surely there must be a poster out there who can articulate this.

And if not, why not?…
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sat at home with the heating blasting out in their cheap trainers watching all those endless hilarious right wing comedians?
 
Hindsight is a wonderful thing though isn't it. I didn't vote. Why ? Because I could not reconcile what should happen with what could happen. What could happen did happen and we are left with the current shitshow. What should have happened is that there was a properly researched and funded plan in place to address the gaps that leaving the EU would bring to the fore. An example of this is tradespeople. I live in North Wales and there were plenty of Europeans (particularly Poles) working in industries where there was a shortage of trained British workers. Immediately the results were known there should have been a properly executed plan to train young people to fill these roles. never happened.
In addition to that, we could have hoped that the EU would have acted in a responsible and mature way and actually eased the transition in terms of future relationships. They didn't. They went out of their way ( like a partner on the wronged side of a divorce) to make things as awkward and difficult as possible. You can argue that 'We left, that was our decision', but it didn't have to be that way.
I think it is over simplifying things to assume that anyone who did, or considered, a vote to leave the EU is some sort of brainless knuckledragger. It isn't that simple.
 
bluebaja said:
Hindsight is a wonderful thing though isn't it. I didn't vote. Why ? Because I could not reconcile what should happen with what could happen. What could happen did happen and we are left with the current shitshow. What should have happened is that there was a properly researched and funded plan in place to address the gaps that leaving the EU would bring to the fore. An example of this is tradespeople. I live in North Wales and there were plenty of Europeans (particularly Poles) working in industries where there was a shortage of trained British workers. Immediately the results were known there should have been a properly executed plan to train young people to fill these roles. never happened.
In addition to that, we could have hoped that the EU would have acted in a responsible and mature way and actually eased the transition in terms of future relationships. They didn't. They went out of their way ( like a partner on the wronged side of a divorce) to make things as awkward and difficult as possible. You can argue that 'We left, that was our decision', but it didn't have to be that way.
I think it is over simplifying things to assume that anyone who did, or considered, a vote to leave the EU is some sort of brainless knuckledragger. It isn't that simple.
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Where is the evidence that the EU went out of their way to be unreasonable. My recollection was that we insisted on being treated as a 3rd country and they duly obliged, however we did not have the infrastructure or trained people to reciprocate so it’s ended up with a one way system benefitting them and penalising us. We got exactly what we asked for.
 
bluebaja said:
Hindsight is a wonderful thing though isn't it. I didn't vote. Why ? Because I could not reconcile what should happen with what could happen. What could happen did happen and we are left with the current shitshow. What should have happened is that there was a properly researched and funded plan in place to address the gaps that leaving the EU would bring to the fore. An example of this is tradespeople. I live in North Wales and there were plenty of Europeans (particularly Poles) working in industries where there was a shortage of trained British workers. Immediately the results were known there should have been a properly executed plan to train young people to fill these roles. never happened.
In addition to that, we could have hoped that the EU would have acted in a responsible and mature way and actually eased the transition in terms of future relationships. They didn't. They went out of their way ( like a partner on the wronged side of a divorce) to make things as awkward and difficult as possible. You can argue that 'We left, that was our decision', but it didn't have to be that way.
I think it is over simplifying things to assume that anyone who did, or considered, a vote to leave the EU is some sort of brainless knuckledragger. It isn't that simple.
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I certainly don’t assert that image, not least because it’s palpably wrong. Some of the most intelligent people I know voted to leave. For lots of different reasons.

That fact you didn’t vote to leave because of the fears you had about its efficacious execution speaks volumes.

It was never going to be delivered as promised. It was an impossibility. And your post serves to support that argument.

It was an impossible dream. We were too far in to extricate ourselves painlessly. Amazed so many seriously clever people completely missed this.
 
I see the whole Brexit campaign as a warning to anyone over here, of the amount of research and planning that needs to be done by the likes of Sinn Fein and the manifesto they will need to present to the public on both sides of the border, before they even contemplate suggesting a referendum on Uniting Ireland and Northern Ireland. Let’s call it UnIrNorn.

The opposite of an exit but no less fraught with danger.
 
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mancity2012_eamo said:
I see the whole Brexit campaign as a warning to anyone over here, of the amount of research and planning that needs to be done by the likes of Sinn Fein and the manifesto they will need to present to the public on both sides of the border, before they even contemplate suggesting a referendum on Uniting Ireland and Northern Ireland. Let’s call it UnIrNorn.

The opposite of an exit but no less drought with danger.
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People forget our assimilation into the EU was slow and progressive. Over half a decade.

We have reversed fifty years travel in one direction, the opposite way in seven. Of course that is going to be fraught with danger.

You are completely right to be cautious. Don’t be reckless with your country’s future.
 

bluebaja said:
I live in North Wales and there were plenty of Europeans (particularly Poles) working in industries where there was a shortage of trained British workers. Immediately the results were known there should have been a properly executed plan to train young people to fill these roles
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There has been plenty in the last couple of days that shows Johnsons first reaction was shock as he knew they had no plan........ they then had a squabble with the ERG and DUP exerting far too much power ensuring that no plan was ever formulated. In fact if you look back to the point where Call Me Dave and Gorgeous George walked away they never had a plan for anything which is why Mayday failed.

bluebaja said:
In addition to that, we could have hoped that the EU would have acted in a responsible and mature way and actually eased the transition in terms of future relationships. They didn't. They went out of their way ( like a partner on the wronged side of a divorce) to make things as awkward and difficult as possible. You can argue that 'We left, that was our decision', but it didn't have to be that way.
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I'd love to see your proof of that.

All i can say the EU pointed out from day one that leaving made us a third country and third country rules would apply. That was Project Fear according to Davis/Hannan/Gove etc but that is what the EU did. Remember when it was pointed out that you stop paying fees to the golf club you lose access to their facilities and it was laughed at? We left the gym and stopped paying the subs....... getting it now?
 
One problem was that the people making the 'promises' were not the Government and were in no position to even try to deliver them.

It's like having a referendum where a group of liars promise to give everyone a gold-plated Rolls-Royce if the vote goes their way. But they are not the Government and nor will they ever be. (E.g Nigel Farage (pub bore extraordinaire) and Aaron Banks to name but two.)

One of the difficulties of a binary referendum is that there is nothing that prevents the impossible from being voted for. We could vote to have the sunny weather 52 weeks a year, or longer hours of daylight, but it could not be delivered. In the words of Robert Graves: 'Parliament may vote a turd to be a rose, but a turd it remains.'

What we have is a situation where no one is happy with the outcome, no matter which way they voted. As there were as many imaginary versions of Brexit as there were people who voted for it (or almost so) this was inevitable. At least those who voted remain knew that they wanted the status quo.
 
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