How much have Thatcher/Reagan contributed to the state of the world today?

If I were to give Thatcher the benefit of the doubt (I feel dirty saying that, and not in a good way), I might consider that she didn’t fully grasp how selfish and greedy many people could be.

Her embrace of neoliberalism and the trickle-down theory of unrestrained capitalism might have been based on the naive belief that once people had enough money, they would be more inclined to reinvest profits into their businesses, thereby improving standards and services, and to invest in their staff by offering financial rewards.

However, what we actually saw was a surge in greed and selfishness, with companies prioritising cost-cutting at any expense and funneling profits to shareholders, often at the expense of employees, service quality, and long-term sustainability.
I think you’re correct. Plus she was from a time and place where greed was frowned upon. So I think she thought social pressure would restrain people, but social mores had hugely changed by the time she came to power, based on where and when her personality was formed. In a town like Grantham ffs! It’s about the most boring place I’ve ever visited. No way would ostentatious displays of wealth be socially acceptable in Grantham in the 1930s.
 
If I were to give Thatcher the benefit of the doubt (I feel dirty saying that, and not in a good way), I might consider that she didn’t fully grasp how selfish and greedy many people could be.

Her embrace of neoliberalism and the trickle-down theory of unrestrained capitalism might have been based on the naive belief that once people had enough money, they would be more inclined to reinvest profits into their businesses, thereby improving standards and services, and to invest in their staff by offering financial rewards.

However, what we actually saw was a surge in greed and selfishness, with companies prioritising cost-cutting at any expense and funneling profits to shareholders, often at the expense of employees, service quality, and long-term sustainability.
...well all that will change now, and everything will be lovely again
 
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"The lady is not for turning" !!!
 
I was 14 years old when she came to power and i had to live with the consequences of her policies. There were no jobs for the likes of me and we even had the indignity of the local Labour Club being used as a makeshift centre where people could sign on the dole. There were queues out of the door to sign on and many where people I was at school with. She sacrificed my generation on the altar of corporate greed, tax cuts for the wealthy and destruction of the social fabrication of many communitees in the UK. When the witch said "there is no such thing as society" reflects the idea that inter-dependent social systems and institutions bring a natural order to human affairs. Its details are evident in the common law, in rituals and in customs and practices handed down the generations. This evolving order allows individuals to give expression to their personal choices; and, by those choices, systems and institutions are shaped through continuous adaptation.It is classic Hayekian psychobabble.

Hayek stated “One’s initial surprise at finding that intelligent people tend to be socialists diminishes when one realises that, of course, intelligent people will tend to overvalue intelligence." Thatcher the chemist overvalued hers as I do not believe she really understood Hayek at all. Just used bits of his work to create a country that was ripe for capitalist exploitation.

When the witch died me and my mates who lived through her nightmare had a big fucking party,

DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD
 
Don't know enough about Regan to comment on him but Thatchers ideological pursuit of unions was crippling. It poisoned peoples minds against structural institutions and lead to mistrust in them which oddly in 2024 helped to their eventual destruction. A structural institution no longer had trust in it.

Collective bargaining is not a bad thing. Speak to a union and you don't have to have individual meetings over pay from every employee crippling the business. Don't speak to them ( Dr's and the RMT come to mind ) can lead to strikes - speak to them and maybe you make progress.
 
In her autobiographical A Memoir: People and Places, Mary Warnock devotes a full chapter to our former Prime Minister, a personage that she encountered on several occasions. This will be a long post but Warnock's observations amount to a wonderful piece of character assassination.

Philosophers from Warnock's generation who were based at Oxford and Cambridge were very accomplished at witheringly eloquent put-downs but generally confined their verbal cruelty to slagging off each other. So this is an exception.

But anyway, having been disconcerted at an informal pre-lunch party by Thatcher’s inappropriately regal bearing, 'total absence of warmth', ‘sheer rudeness and bad behaviour’, and unimpressed with her ‘gaudy clothes‘ and ‘rampant hairdressing‘ (apparently, her famously bouffant hair looked 'ragged' from the back), Warnock proceeds to offer this description of a speech made at a later meeting of the Independent Broadcasting Authority:

'As soon as we sat down to lunch, and while the dishes were still being served, she started to speak. It must have been before she was taught, by those responsible for her packaging, to drop her voice by nearly an octave, and there were no dulcet tones. There was not even the air of the exasperated primary school teacher, with difficulty keeping a grip on her patience, to which we were becoming accustomed on television. Instead, she spoke loudly, in a high-pitched and furious voice, and without drawing breath (or so it seemed, though she was able to swiftly eat up her lunch at the same time). Her theme was the appalling left-wing, anti-government bias of the independent television companies, and of the authority itself...Her new plan she stated, was to curb the media, and compel them to present news and current affairs in accordance with government wishes.'

When a suggestion was made to her that such a policy would be damaging to the freedom of the press, 'she swept it aside, and declared that the People were not interested in the freedom of the press, but only in having Choice (it was the first time I had heard this formula); and choice meant having available a variety of channels, all of which were truthful and encouraging. Nobody mentioned Stalin, but he was in everyone's mind.'

And there's more. This is about a subsequent address Thatcher made at a Vice-Chancellor’s lunch:

‘Almost as she hurried in with her little partridge steps, the Prime Minister began to rant against the universities, their arrogance, elitism, remoteness from the People, their indifference to the economy, their insistence on wasting time and public money on such subjects as history, philosophy and classics…she did not stop for more than two hours [and] no single one of her hosts could get a word in.

The Vice-Chancellor was her husband Geoffrey, another noted philosopher, who was similarly shocked by Thatcher’s ‘deep philistinism, amounting not just to a failure to understand but a positive hatred of culture, learning and civilisation.’

Reflecting on these episodes, Warnock remarks [the word in block capitals is hers] that 'I think that she simply did not know how to behave and was in some way LOW, eventually confessing that whenever she thinks of her, she cannot help but recall ‘a particular electric blue suit‘ which ‘expresses directly, like a language one has always known, the crudity, philistinism and aggression that made up Margaret Thatcher’s character.‘

A little further on, Warnock writes that she was concerned by an 'aspect of the Great Educational Reform Bill of 1988. The consequence of the 1988 Education Act in so far as it was concerned with school education, was to introduce the idea of competition between schools, and choice for parents. The league tables showing the academic achievements of schools alongside one another were supposed to enable parents to choose the best schools. The free market would operate. Schools which performed badly would not be chosen by parents, and so would ultimately wither away. This was the original idea. (no one gave thought, apparently, to what would happen to children who were pupils at these bad schools while they were in the process of withering away).' [Warnock herself was worried about the impact on the education of children with special needs].

'This part of the 1988 Act was derived largely...from a personal vendetta of Margaret Thatcher's, this time against the teaching profession. Teachers could be judged, she thought, by the academic results of their pupils; the operation of the free market would succeed in the end in eliminating those schools where the teachers were bad; or market competition would cause those schools to get rid of their bad teachers and employ good ones, so that they would become good schools. This was the theory, enthusiastically propounded by Kenneth Baker, and close to Margaret Thatcher's own heart.'

Later in the chapter and still on the subject of the 1988 Great Educational Reform Bill, and the establishment of the University Funding Council, Warnock notes that the latter new body was dominated by representatives from the business world who were largely in thrall to the view that the goal of higher education should be to satisfy the needs of commerce and industry. The preceding White Paper had made it clear that it was up to Whitehall and not students to decide which subjects were worthy of study: ‘The Government considers student demand…to be an insufficient basis for the planning of higher education. A major determinant must be…the demands for highly qualified manpower.’ In a nutshell, the purpose of universities should primarily be to serve ‘the world of business’.

Warnock goes on to conclude that ‘the condition to which higher education was reduced was, I think, one of the worst effects of Thatcherism…the concept of learning, the respect for higher education for its own sake, as something intrinsically worth having, an essential part of any civilised society, had been thrown out; and this largely because of her own detestation of academics.’

Fast-forward to the present and not much has changed. Quite recently we have had Farage being dismissive about the social sciences, for example.

Will therefore let yet another philosopher, the estimable Martha Nussbaum, have the last word:

‘We increasingly treat education as though its primary goal were to teach students to be economically productive rather than to think critically and become knowledgeable and empathetic citizens. This shortsighted focus on profitable skills has eroded our ability to criticize authority, reduced our sympathy with the marginalized and different, and damaged our competence to deal with complex global problems.’
 
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I think it's unfair to stick all today's shite on Raegan and Thatcher. I get the economics side of the argument but as others have stated, Thatcher would be spinning in her grave at the state of today's Conservative party. I've little doubt that if she was still PM, she wouldn't have cunts like Johnson anywhere near her cabinet. That's not to say I'm a fan of hers of course. She was as divisive a Prime Minister as I think we've ever had. However, it wasn't always a totally black and white situation. On the night she died, I was meeting some mates over in Salford Quays for a few pints before attending the derby at The Swamp. One of those mates is a first generation Irish Catholic. When I asked him for his opinion, his answer was: "If you're a miner or Irish then you'll understandably hate her guts but on the flip side, while my parents are Irish she enabled them to buy their first house".
 
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The word that immediately came to mind was neoliberalism. They certainly weren't the brains behind it and there was an inevitably about the direction of travel away from the postwar consensus regardless of who was in charge.

In many ways they are bit part players who just happened to take power at a certain point in history. But the ideology was fully embraced on their watch and is their ultimate legacy.


After Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan took power, the rest of the package soon followed: massive tax cuts for the rich, the crushing of trade unions, deregulation, privatisation, outsourcing and competition in public services. Through the IMF, the World Bank, the Maastricht treaty and the World Trade Organisation, neoliberal policies were imposed – often without democratic consent – on much of the world. Most remarkable was its adoption among parties that once belonged to the left: Labour and the Democrats, for example. As Stedman Jones notes, “it is hard to think of another utopia to have been as fully realised.”



I still cant accept that anyone would ever believe that ''trickle down Economics'' would actually work.
 
I still cant accept that anyone would ever believe that ''trickle down Economics'' would actually work.
There is a case that living standards generally have improved under right wing economics, but any improvement has been from trickling down and flooding up the benefits, and creating hideous disparity of wealth. And "austerity" stopped the trickle.

Pope Francis has summed up the nonsense that tax cuts for the rich benefit the poor

Some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naive trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralised workings of the prevailing economic system. Meanwhile, the excluded are still waiting.

And

The promise was that when the glass was full, it would overflow, benefiting the poor. What happens instead is that when the glass is full, it magically gets bigger, but nothing ever comes out for the poor.
 
There is a case that living standards generally have improved under right wing economics, but any improvement has been from trickling down and flooding up the benefits, and creating hideous disparity of wealth. And "austerity" stopped the trickle.

Pope Francis has summed up the nonsense that tax cuts for the rich benefit the poor

Some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naive trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralised workings of the prevailing economic system. Meanwhile, the excluded are still waiting.

And

The promise was that when the glass was full, it would overflow, benefiting the poor. What happens instead is that when the glass is full, it magically gets bigger, but nothing ever comes out for the poor.
Is that the same Pope Francis that lives in a massive house paid for from money that was stolen from poor people?
 
‘We increasingly treat education as though its primary goal were to teach students to be economically productive rather than to think critically and become knowledgeable and empathetic citizens. This shortsighted focus on profitable skills has eroded our ability to criticize authority, reduced our sympathy with the marginalized and different, and damaged our competence to deal with complex global problems.’
What a magnificent post Zen, but can i focus on this small part of it.

Governments including this one under Starmer see the Working class as units of production that serve the Capitalist class, we are in effect slaves to Capitalism as serfs were to the Barons.

If we lack the ability to think critically, we lack the ability to question, we become nothing more than drones that serve the elite. Rees-Mogg was guilty of this after covid questioning why the drones were not back at their desks. I still do probably 90% of what I do from home on my laptop and it works fine, yes it is nice to meet in person occasionally but it is not necessary.

Education should be a pleasure, but i am increasingly drawn to the fact schools do not have books, as a kid who could read before I went to primary school and who has read all my life I find it appalling that kids do not have books. Austerity though meant many families could not buy books, libraries closed and I believe it is a deliberate attempt to dumb down society so they become more acceptable of the Capitalist hegemony. I grew up reading books like Lord of The Rings and i think they helped me develop a social conscience, right from wrong, good from evil etc. Then because i had reading ability i could read real books that helped shape my thinking , but i also had a magnificent Politics Teacher at secondary school, who encouraged debate and challenged your thinking. I think his political persuasion looking back was probably on the left, but he never tried to influence our thinking he wanted us to debate our ideas. Those two hours a week with him made me question my beliefs and encouraged me to investigate whether my beliefs held any credence.
 
Thatcher lowered the top income tax rate from 83% to 60%, and the to 40%. The basic rate was reduced from 33% to 25%. Could we live with those high rates now?
 

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