how to stop us - sussed

[tolmie's hairdoo]

This is becoming more and more apparent against the better teams.

Any opposition defending properly from the front, forces our centre backs to go wide, generally to the right, and unfortunately, out to Richards.

He in turn, is unable to do anything more than jam in Johnson out on the touchline, with his back to the play.

Resulting in either a thrown in, or a hurried pass back to Richards, who because of a lack of control, is forced to pass across the backline, or back to Given, who launches upfield...


And repeat....basically an inability with ball retention, not enough players comfortable enough to take the responsibility.

It is also mirrored when the ball comes into midfield, as De Jong and Barry lack the ability to come short and turn....again, the ball goes backwards.

Last night was the first real eye opener for me in what we could actually be achieved if we put two or three fundamental positions right.

Would a new midfield, and full-backs, solve this?

 

[chazmcfc]

Spot on. Absoultely spot on. Richards is just to awkward with the ball at his feet, doesn't have a clue what to do with it. We need a new right back and a BALL PLAYING centre mid that can link the play and our problems are solved. Srna and Arteta please.

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

This is becoming more and more apparent against the better teams.

Any opposition defending properly from the front, forces our centre backs to go wide, generally to the right, and unfortunately, out to Richards.

He in turn, is unable to do anything more than jam in Johnson out on the touchline, with his back to the play.

Resulting in either a thrown in, or a hurried pass back to Richards, who because of a lack of control, is forced to pass across the backline, or back to Given, who launches upfield...


And repeat....basically an inability with ball retention, not enough players comfortable enough to take the responsibility.

It is also mirrored when the ball comes into midfield, as De Jong and Barry lack the ability to come short and turn....again, the ball goes backwards.

Last night was the first real eye opener for me in what we could actually be achieved if we put two or three fundamental positions right.

Would a new midfield, and full-backs, solve this?

A midfielder who has been brought up to go forwards towards the opponents goal would be a blessing.

And why do we give teams all the time in the world to bring the ball deep into our half before we consider a challenge. EFC were defending from our penalty area. Standing back and allowing teams every option really pees me off.

 

[Goater666]

It shouldn't be about throwing money at it, we should be able to adapt our play to suit the players strengths.

You cant tell me De Jong is not comfortable on the ball, because he is, he just doesn't have anyone to pass the ball to in front of him. We lack tempo and movement right through the team, that's why we struggle to break teams down.

 

[flb]

This is becoming more and more apparent against the better teams.

Any opposition defending properly from the front, forces our centre backs to go wide, generally to the right, and unfortunately, out to Richards.

He in turn, is unable to do anything more than jam in Johnson out on the touchline, with his back to the play.

Resulting in either a thrown in, or a hurried pass back to Richards, who because of a lack of control, is forced to pass across the backline, or back to Given, who launches upfield...


And repeat....basically an inability with ball retention, not enough players comfortable enough to take the responsibility.

It is also mirrored when the ball comes into midfield, as De Jong and Barry lack the ability to come short and turn....again, the ball goes backwards.

Last night was the first real eye opener for me in what we could actually be achieved if we put two or three fundamental positions right.

Would a new midfield, and full-backs, solve this?

Big physical atacking fullbacks is what our formation is crying out for (in the maicon mould) this to me is the only thing holding us back-our full backs are shite at attacking.

Our wide lads (Johnson,SWP,Bellamy) need proper support down the flanks

 

[tevezblue]

This is becoming more and more apparent against the better teams.

Any opposition defending properly from the front, forces our centre backs to go wide, generally to the right, and unfortunately, out to Richards.

He in turn, is unable to do anything more than jam in Johnson out on the touchline, with his back to the play.

Resulting in either a thrown in, or a hurried pass back to Richards, who because of a lack of control, is forced to pass across the backline, or back to Given, who launches upfield...


And repeat....basically an inability with ball retention, not enough players comfortable enough to take the responsibility.

It is also mirrored when the ball comes into midfield, as De Jong and Barry lack the ability to come short and turn....again, the ball goes backwards.

Last night was the first real eye opener for me in what we could actually be achieved if we put two or three fundamental positions right.

Would a new midfield, and full-backs, solve this?

All very true. Other teams can dictate how we play and where.<br /><br />-- Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:45 am --<br /><br />

It shouldn't be about throwing money at it, we should be able to adapt our play to suit the players strengths. .

Unfortunately, every problem we have now comes down throwing money at it. Thats where we are at and its sad.

Hire a top manager - give him a £100 million - thats all he gets, he can sell and buy who he wants. Then hopefully we don't have to spend much more after that, maybe a player a season.

We really need to look very closely at the way JM set Chelsea up.

 

[bizzbo]

only thing i disagree with is that barry is actually the only one with the ability to come short and turn, that's why he plays week in week out.

it's heartbreaking, but I agree about richards, he's just not cutting it. at least it was an improvement on sunderland away... that was dreadful, his lack of understanding of the game, his lack of common sense and ability to help the team in possession was really exposed. still, he's young and has time on his side. it's swp and ndj that worry me, just can't play this kind of football with 3 non footballers in those positions.

 

[tolmie's hairdoo]

It shouldn't be about throwing money at it, we should be able to adapt our play to suit the players strengths.

You cant tell me De Jong is not comfortable on the ball, because he is, he just doesn't have anyone to pass the ball to in front of him. We lack tempo and movement right through the team, that's why we struggle to break teams down.

I will say to you that De Jong is far from comfortable on the ball.

I am a fan, but I do not get carried away like some.

Last night was his worst game in a City shirt, indifferent and lacking his usual bite.

As for his ball retention, do me a favour, one of the weakest apsects of his game.

There are better players than both Barry and De Jong, who have more facets about their midfield game.

Look how we turned into a threat when Toure (of all people) broke ranks and came out of defence, it was the only time Everton's gameplan was altered in terms of keeping us hemmed in.

 

[iomblue]

whoever said de jong can play the ball must have seen a whole load of things that have passed me by. all nigel de jong can do is win the ball, he struggles to control it and unless it's a short or someone is in bags of space he can't pass it either. The midfield is naturally defensive was made up to see ireland start last night and it was evident he lacked sharpness but a run in the side would solve this problem, he played a few great little balls and although i could understand the substitution it didn't pay off. Micah had a shocker, very indecisive and stifled SWP. The title of this thread sums it up better than anything I oculd ever say cos to me it didn't seem we played badly last night, just the age old problem of being woeful when the opposition is in possession.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Good post, Tolm, maybe a bit simplistic, but correct.

We play better against teams who try to beat us than we do against the "spoiling" teams.

The upside to your post, and I think you allude to it, is that we are not that far from being a real top team, one that wins trophies.

I'm going to start a thread on that I think.

 

[Ricster]

Tell you what Tolmie, totally hit the nail on the head.

Wonder if Toure noticed that too?

 

[tolmie's hairdoo]

Good post, Tolm, maybe a bit simplistic, but correct.

We play better against teams who try to beat us than we do against the "spoiling" teams.

The upside to your post, and I think you allude to it, is that we are not that far from being a real top team, one that wins trophies.

I'm going to start a thread on that I think.

Bang on DD - much as we would like, can't allow the frustrations to get the better of us and overwhelm what could still be a memorable season.

Much as many of us will lose our favourites, think we are only four players away from a title challenge.

Which is SEVEN players less than we needed last year.

Football really is simple if you have watched it long enough. The majority of our players' back are to the play, so how the hell you are going to get results all the time, is beyond me.

I'm glad people have seen this was not a knocking thread, my views on Richards and Barry, in particular, have been well aired previously.

But Everton's approach was as simplistic as football needs to be. Defend from the front, work hard, take your chances when they come.

Above average players are easily found out when the fundamentals of their game are questioned.

What I will say, is Mancini dropped a tactical error bringing SWP on.

In that, it was a wasted substitute, with players on the park who could have done the job more effectively.

Johnson could easily have been switched to the right, Zab extra into midfield, Garrido or Barry into left-back.

 

[ST Coleridge]

The first half was really encouraging, in terms of keeping the ball and working it into the box. In the second period, though, it went to shit, with the emphasis on the fullbacks trying to hit the strikers with long balls. There was only a couple of occasions in the second half when we were able to string a few passes together in the final third.

It was obviously a sense of hurriedness brought about by the scoreline, but it was seriously compounded by the loss of Ireland. When SWP came on, Bellamy & Tevez just played on the shoulders of the Everton centrebacks - there was too much space between De Jong & Barry and the forward line. I wanted Tevez to play much deeper, making the link himself.

On another note - if Everton are going to play so deep, then it makes sense to bring on Santa Cruz and concentrate on getting crosses in. It makes no sense, however, to take off the one player that can actually cross accurately, Adam Johnson.

Pissed off with the score, and don't think Everton deserved a win. Encouraging in patches.

 

[MCFC87]

It shouldn't be about throwing money at it, we should be able to adapt our play to suit the players strengths.

You cant tell me De Jong is not comfortable on the ball, because he is, he just doesn't have anyone to pass the ball to in front of him. We lack tempo and movement right through the team, that's why we struggle to break teams down.

OP made some great points, I also agree with this. When we have the ball in midfield we seem so static, not enough movement to make a pass. Watching Man United, Barca, Arsenal, Inter and so on - always seem to retain possession and penetrate up the field. We aren't doing that at the moment. Were a counter attacking team and we don't press the ball enough for me.

 

[Goater666]

What's the obsession with ball retention Tolmie?

I want players to get the ball and pass it on, not hold on to it for ages and dick about with it. If they cant pass it on they at least need to move the ball forward.

If De Jong is guilty of anything he passes ball sidewards and backwards to much but he rarely gives the ball away though.

 

[Nils]

de jong doesn't hold the ball long enough to be classed as comfortable on the ball....he get's rid straightaway, usually sideways behind his intended target and then makes some sort of hand gesture...does it every time....he never actually runs with the ball forward into space which would actually commit an opponent to come to meet him thereby making space for one of our players further forward...he never wants the ball back when he's passed him.....just watch him.....he was worse than ever last night and why fans on here and managers continue to praise him and pick him, is a mystery to me, i obviously know f all about football, what i do know is that we perform a lot better without him....he puts way too much pressure on his midfield teammates.....think some of the criticism of toure a bit harsh last night...kompany, who's been excellent, had an absolute shocker..

 

[tolmie's hairdoo]

What's the obsession with ball retention Tolmie?

I want players to get the ball and pass it on, not hold on to it for ages and dick about with it. If they cant pass it on they at least need to move the ball forward.

If De Jong is guilty of anything he passes ball sidewards and backwards to much but he rarely gives the ball away though.

Don't pass the ball for the sake of it. It's like watching the Chuckle Brothers at time - to me, to you.

Someone who has good ball retention, invariably, can see a pass going forward.

All we do is pass the buck until it goes back to Given....then HOOF!

 

[Goater666]

Don't pass the ball for the sake of it. It's like watching the Chuckle Brothers at time - to me, to you.

Someone who has good ball retention, invariably, can see a pass going forward.

All we do is pass the buck until it goes back to Given....then HOOF!

I agree we make far to many un-needed passes.

Looking at the stats, we made 461 passes to Everton's 277.

I'd say about half of them were what i class as dicking about passes.

 

[IMARRIEDBLUEMOON]

So right about playing with their back to the play and the sideways /back passing and eventually ending up at Given who............then hoofs it up the park. Whats all that about FFS? One thing i've noticed tho during the last two games is that there seems to be a concerted effort to actually SHOOT at the goal thereby either actually netting or getting that push of the goalie to be snapped up by a poaching striker as in the Fulham game when RSC tapped in. Has Bobby had a word do you think? i think someone has!

 

[Gelsons Dad]

I would agree with the OP when we play Richards at RB but when Bridge and Zab are the full backs they offer proper support on the flanks enabling us to play around our weak centre midfield.

I also agree about the SWP substitution. I would have thought RSC was the option at that stage.

I also wonder if Bobby succumbed to the press pressure to play Ireland? I thought it was a bad decision and although he woke up after 15 minutes and played a couple of passes he quickly went missing again even before his knock.

Despite his Face Off with Golum I though it was a poor night for Bobby who got a couple of things wrong.

I still think he's our future though and wouldn't swap him for Jose.