Irish Current Affairs

mancity2012_eamo said:
Well, we think up a question on a referendum ballot whereby the answer is No or No. But the meaning is you join the rest of us down South.
That way we get the DUP on board as well. They only like saying No.

It all in the wording. Might take a while, but we’ll think up something uniquely ambiguously Oirish.

What could possibly go wrong?
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I've always found it interesting, how would a unified or re-unified Ireland work, what do people imagine it would be? In particularly what would the impact be for NI.

Would NI come under one capital, one flag, one education system, one set of internal and external laws and rules etc.

Every time someone suggests the notion, I wonder, what are they thinking and what is their percieved reality of that. It is a much bigger constitutional change, than basic independence from the union.
 
Coatigan said:
I've always found it interesting, how would a unified or re-unified Ireland work, what do people imagine it would be? In particularly what would the impact be for NI.

Would NI come under one capital, one flag, one education system, one set of internal and external laws and rules etc.

Every time someone suggests the notion, I wonder, what are they thinking and what is their percieved reality of that. It is a much bigger constitutional change, than basic independence from the union.
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Believe me. I can’t wait for Sinn Fein to come around my door(which they never do) at election time.
You’re hitting the nail firmly on the head with some of those questions.
I’d like to know what exactly they (meaning us down South) are willing to do, for a United Ireland. What are they(meaning us) willing to give that would make it palatable for even the most moderate of unionists.

Because that is what we are looking at. A very different notion of an island of Ireland than the one supposedly lost and lamented for centuries.
 
The vast majority of Unionists in NI have no interest whatsoever in anything that can be described as a United Ireland. No matter what the concessions are in terms of flags, anthems etc. It just doesn't matter; they don't want it, and never will. And this island is too small to accommodate a million malcontents.

The only future for NI is as part of the UK, with maximum possible cooperation and good will towards their southern neighbours. Nothing else is feasible or desirable. There are two traditions on this island, and we have to live with it. All our efforts should be towards making both parts of the island as peaceful and prosperous as possible. There is no room for a United Ireland in that debate. None.
 
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Ballymagash Blue said:
The vast majority of Unionists in NI have no interest whatsoever in anything that can be described as a United Ireland. No matter what the concessions are in terms of flags, anthems etc. It just doesn't matter; they don't want it, and never will. And this island is too small to accommodate a million malcontents.

The only future for NI is as part of the UK, with maximum possible cooperation and good will towards their southern neighbours. Nothing else is feasible or desirable. There are two traditions on this island, and we have to live with it. All our efforts should be towards making both parts of the island as peaceful and prosperous as possible. There is no room for a United Ireland in that debate. None.
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I understand where you’re coming from, but both aspirations have to be accommodated and taken into account democratically, under the GFA which had three strands that were all agreed on, which was almost miraculous considering the divisions at the time.
Strand 1 was power sharing between both sides within NI.
Strand 2 was relations between NI and the Republic.
Strand 3 concerned relations between the Irish and British governments.

This three strand plan was the brainchild of the the late John Hume, a man I have the deepest respect for.
If it is the will of the Northern Irish people to remain as they are, then I have no problem whatsoever with it. But I consider what the DUP are doing now as duplicitous, hypocritical and undemocratic.
The NIP is just the latest excuse for them not to sit in an assembly with a Sinn Feiner as first minister.

That is not the spirit of the GFA that the youth of 1998 though was dawning a bright new future for the North.

Jeffrey Donaldson himself was part of David Trimble’s negotiating team at the time. The team that got this done. That was before he jumped ship in the new millennium.

I’m watching a program in two parts, on RTE called The Agreement. It really is a remarkable achievement what was sorted out up north and on this island as a whole.
Part two is tonight but already a few things have struck me.
1. I don’t believe this would have been possible under a Tory government.
2. The DUP tried to scupper the whole thing (that part comes tonight I believe)
3. I knew what I was voting for in our referendum regarding articles 2 +3 of the Irish constitution and the meaning going forward.

Reginald Empey commented on this as being significant although his view is that those articles should never have existed in the first place.
Well that’s one view of history, but there is another side. I’d be of the view that there should never have been partition of the island in the first place, by a Tory government, for the very same economical reasons as you quote.
If we want to live in the history of Ireland rather than the future, then how far do you want to go back.
The whole of Ireland was part of the UK and voted Democratically more than once for devolution to a Dublin parliament.
At the risk of great bloodshed this never happened.
The Tory solution was to keep the commercially viable as well as predominantly loyalist majority of the North ensuring a loyalist majority.

The South had never had the same investment from London that the North had and consequently we were a third world country for a half a century after independence.
There are many historical reasons why the rest of Ireland was economically ignored under the empire but there is no need to go into that now. Let’s stick with the future or the prospects of one that suits both histories and both aspirations.

It took us joining the EEC for things to start to change.
There were many things wrong in Irish society during that time. But the country has changed and we have changed.
I believe Northern Ireland has changed too despite polar opposite’s still holding the two main party positions.

So as much as I see the logic in what you have written and also respect your viewpoint, I don’t subscribe to absolutes such as the assumption you have made.

Who knows what the future is in a globally changing economic world.

In the meantime, the DUP won’t take their seat in the Assembly and the Shinners won’t take their seats in Westminster.
 
Ballymagash Blue said:
The vast majority of Unionists in NI have no interest whatsoever in anything that can be described as a United Ireland. No matter what the concessions are in terms of flags, anthems etc. It just doesn't matter; they don't want it, and never will. And this island is too small to accommodate a million malcontents.

The only future for NI is as part of the UK, with maximum possible cooperation and good will towards their southern neighbours. Nothing else is feasible or desirable. There are two traditions on this island, and we have to live with it. All our efforts should be towards making both parts of the island as peaceful and prosperous as possible. There is no room for a United Ireland in that debate. None.
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Putting that, and them, aside. What is a United Ireland for those that do want it, in both north and south.

Lets say for arguement the unionists shrink to a minority, most in NI are up for it, democracy suck it up and all that and what unionists want is not a topic. How does it look for everyone else? Appreciate Eamo has already answered it, mind.
 
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Coatigan said:
Putting that, and them, aside. What is a United Ireland for those that do want it, in both north and south.

Lets say for arguement the unionists shrink to a minority, most in NI are up for it, democracy suck it up and all that and what unionists want is not a topic. How does it look for everyone else? Appreciate Eamo has already answered it, mind.
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To an extent, i agree with what @Ballymagash Blue is saying...but in perhaps a different way.
The "answer" is not a United Ireland....i dont think there will ever be one in the classic sense of NI leaving the UK and re-joining the RoI. That is not in the spirit of the GFA and a shared space for all.
Its all about accepting and facilitating "the two traditions".

Brexit really fucked things up as its now a lot, lot harder to keep the invisible border open, maintain and develop trade links and in effect, promote a "two state solution" (I dont really like that term, but cant think of another)....where there is positive input from both the UK and RoI.

I'm encouraged by the likes of the SDLP who are formulating their "New Ireland Commission", theyre not a party id vote for, but at least they are looking further ahead than Sammy Wilson and his Irish Sea Border
 
AlexWilliamsGloves said:
To an extent, i agree with what @Ballymagash Blue is saying...but in perhaps a different way.
The "answer" is not a United Ireland....i dont think there will ever be one in the classic sense of NI leaving the UK and re-joining the RoI. That is not in the spirit of the GFA and a shared space for all.
Its all about accepting and facilitating "the two traditions".

Brexit really fucked things up as its now a lot, lot harder to keep the invisible border open, maintain and develop trade links and in effect, promote a "two state solution" (I dont really like that term, but cant think of another)....where there is positive input from both the UK and RoI.

I'm encouraged by the likes of the SDLP who are formulating their "New Ireland Commission", theyre not a party id vote for, but at least they are looking further ahead than Sammy Wilson and his Irish Sea Border
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Presumably, the GFA would become obsolete and irrelevant in the event of a choice to reunite.
 
Coatigan said:
Presumably, the GFA would become obsolete and irrelevant in the event of a choice to reunite.
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I don’t see why, for similar reasons to what AWG has outlined.
I really don’t see there being a 32 county Republic. It will have to involve dual citizenship of some sort.
Brexit really is a fuck up.
We said it at the time to the likes of Farage and one particular poster on here, in fact, that what you would be left with as a UK, would not be in keeping with the international agreement of the GFA that you are signed up to.

I’ve always maintained in here that the GFA is the only guarantee of a future that unionists have and yet the now biggest unionist party, the DUP have always tried to undermine it.
They now wave it in their fists when it suits them, while at the same time try to bring the country back to the late 1800’s.

Unionism would be crazy to give up on the GFA and rely solely on a Tory government in Westminster.
 
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Coatigan said:
Presumably, the GFA would become obsolete and irrelevant in the event of a choice to reunite.
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Watching part two of The Agreement at the moment.

Thought this answers some of your questions.

The Agreement was never a settlement.
It was an agreement of a journey without agreement of a destination.

Gerry Adams.
 
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