Irish Current Affairs

mancity2012_eamo said:
Sadds;
If Scotland voted and NI voted to leave the UK alongside England/Wales finally biting the bullet around membership of the single market you could see a number of solutions opening up.

Not sure if it’s just a punctuation thing Sadds, but explain your thought process here please.
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Nothing particularly sophisticated mate and it may well be fluff.
1) two countries NI and Scotland decide they want to leave the Uk. Unequivocally . Teamwork makes the dream work .
2) Both nations + Remain Uk want closer relations to EU/SM either from a political or trade or both perspective
3) EU are warm to no 2.
4) sensible politicians and leaders can talk and negotiate for the five entities
5) there are enough shared objectives that a transition plan covering currencies, trade agreements , mutual support and a target operating model might be possible.

Probably pie in the sky but the alternate future is grim for Scotland/ NI and remain Uk.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
Nothing particularly sophisticated mate and it may well be fluff.
1) two countries NI and Scotland decide they want to leave the Uk. Unequivocally . Teamwork makes the dream work .
2) Both nations + Remain Uk want closer relations to EU/SM either from a political or trade or both perspective
3) EU are warm to no 2.
4) sensible politicians and leaders can talk and negotiate for the five entities
5) there are enough shared objectives that a transition plan covering currencies, trade agreements , mutual support and a target operating model might be possible.

Probably pie in the sky but the alternate future is grim for Scotland/ NI and remain Uk.
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Ok. I was missing no. 2 somehow.
Just for further clarification, would you be contemplating Remain Eng/Wales
joining NI/Scotland outside the UK?.
That seems a little bit of a stretch if you don’t mind me saying Sadds.
If you get to that stage there is no UK.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
No. Remain Uk is eng wales.
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I’m revisiting in the cold light of day.
So are you suggesting that you (NI/Scotland) would liaise separately or negotiate further alliance with Remain Wales/England, if and when they take the majority in parliament.

Forgive me Sadds, I’m still vague on the overall proposal.
I thought last night it was the Tullamore Dew, but I’m still slightly sketchy on the detail.

Maybe you have what I’m asking in item no.4
Just wondering is this as a shadow cabinet like the suggestions are about Starmer at the moment, or are you talking about when they come to power.
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
I’m revisiting in the cold light of day.
So are you suggesting that you (NI/Scotland) would liaise separately or negotiate further alliance with Remain Wales/England, if and when they take the majority in parliament.

Forgive me Sadds, I’m still vague on the overall proposal.
I thought last night it was the Tullamore Dew, but I’m still slightly sketchy on the detail.

Maybe you have what I’m asking in item no.4
Just wondering is this as a shadow cabinet like the suggestions are about Starmer at the moment, or are you talking about when they come to power.
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There is no detail mate. Just sketching an imaginary scenario where things might be easier than they are today. Let me try again.

1. both Scotland and NI populace show an unarguable desire to leave the U.K.
2. Both Scotland and NI want to rejoin the EU
3. At the same time, there is a growing desire in ‘Remaining U.K.’ (England and Wales) To improve trading/travel/joint working with the EU.
4. The EU is ‘warm‘ to all of the above
5. there are sensible people in charge/ leading negotiations for all five entities (Scotland, NI, Ireland, Remaining U.K., EU). All parties want to make a deal, all parties want to be long term partners with each other. (That means Remaining U.K. is governed by adults rather than the cretins in the current government)

So that is an imaginary scenario where all five entities can see a future upside be it repairing the economy, unification, independence or simply growing the existing club (EU).

before I say any more does that make sense? Is that a realistic scenario within say five years? If the answer is maybe then I think such a scenario would be a more helpful and effective environment in which to plan the real work to achieve all those objectives for all five entities. Pie in the sky maybe but a Brexit like uncoupling will be as big a disaster as Brexit was and to avoid it we would need something like this scenario where multiple stars align.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
There is no detail mate. Just sketching an imaginary scenario where things might be easier than they are today. Let me try again.

1. both Scotland and NI populace show an unarguable desire to leave the U.K.
2. Both Scotland and NI want to rejoin the EU
3. At the same time, there is a growing desire in ‘Remaining U.K.’ (England and Wales) To improve trading/travel/joint working with the EU.
4. The EU is ‘warm‘ to all of the above
5. there are sensible people in charge/ leading negotiations for all five entities (Scotland, NI, Ireland, Remaining U.K., EU). All parties want to make a deal, all parties want to be long term partners with each other. (That means Remaining U.K. is governed by adults rather than the cretins in the current government)

So that is an imaginary scenario where all five entities can see a future upside be it repairing the economy, unification, independence or simply growing the existing club (EU).

before I say any more does that make sense? Is that a realistic scenario within say five years? If the answer is maybe then I think such a scenario would be a more helpful and effective environment in which to plan the real work to achieve all those objectives for all five entities. Pie in the sky maybe but a Brexit like uncoupling will be as big a disaster as Brexit was and to avoid it we would need something like this scenario where multiple stars align.
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No that makes sense to me. Like you say it may well be pie in the sky, but it is a valid alternative to the current Brexit thread debates.

I like the sketch, let’s say, but the padding out with detail would be very interesting. What you would even be talking about regarding reunification for ourselves would greatly be determined by what is left of the UK in your scenario.
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
No that makes sense to me. Like you say it may well be pie in the sky, but it is a valid alternative to the current Brexit thread debates.

I like the sketch, let’s say, but the padding out with detail would be very interesting. What you would even be talking about regarding reunification for ourselves would greatly be determined by what is left of the UK in your scenario.
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Some big questions clearly. Would unionist NI feel as strong a pull to the Union if it was clear that Scotland was going to leave it? Would it be possible to offer a similar solution to Unionists in both Scotland and Ireland - joint citizenship of their native countries and 'Remain UK'. Could trade concessions be offered to NI/Scotland/Remain UK by the EU as part of a transition state. Sterling could be retained by NI/Scotland/ as a transition state. End state, single Ireland, independent Scotland with many citizens with joint citizenship. Remaining UK an associate member of the EU enjoying all freedom of movement and trade without the political commitments, Scotland a full member. Euro and Sterling ultimately linked in some way....Its nice to dream.....
 
Saddleworth2 said:
Some big questions clearly. Would unionist NI feel as strong a pull to the Union if it was clear that Scotland was going to leave it? Would it be possible to offer a similar solution to Unionists in both Scotland and Ireland - joint citizenship of their native countries and 'Remain UK'. Could trade concessions be offered to NI/Scotland/Remain UK by the EU as part of a transition state. Sterling could be retained by NI/Scotland/ as a transition state. End state, single Ireland, independent Scotland with many citizens with joint citizenship. Remaining UK an associate member of the EU enjoying all freedom of movement and trade without the political commitments, Scotland a full member. Euro and Sterling ultimately linked in some way....Its nice to dream.....
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Sadds for Prez.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
Indeed. You didn’t give an opinion though. What we ups you like to see ideally.
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Well regarding the questions you ask re: Scotland and Northern Ireland relations and could it replace a UK relationship, or could Scotland have the same dual citizenship as Northern Ireland within an EU setting…… hmmmm!

I find it difficult to visualise an end product but love the think tank idea involving the 5 protagonists. I do think that is something that’s possible, for sensible adults in the room.

I do love the concept of a disbanded UK and and a new Scottish/Irish partnership but in reality it’s not necessary if you rejoin the EU and it’s not a solution either, in keeping with the GFA, for Northern Irish people who still have their British citizenship guaranteed.
And if you are talking about the same dual citizenship for Scotland within the UK and the EU, well that’s a separate discussion nothing to do with Ireland.
That’s a discussion between you and the UK and the EU of course.

I’m struggling to get my head around final solutions, but as I’ve said I like the think tank cooperative idea.

What I hope this does, is give you a glimpse into a Southern concern regarding our own complexities and concerns if we ever get to the stage where we are asked, do we want reunification.
The importance will be in the detail and I can see it being 10 times more frightening and Complex for our brethren up North.
 
Actually doing something out of curiosity, which I haven done in a long time.
I’m watching Patrick Kielty on The Late Late Show.
It’s every bit as naff as ever it was but, with regards to recent discussions in here with Sadds and AWG and out of interest in opinions from all other Northern Irish posters or Scottish for that matter, I found Ciara McGeehan’s interview quite interesting.
She’ s Irish record holder at 400 800 and 1500 metres and Northern Irish.
Kielty himself is too and James Nesbitt is also a guest.
I find the dual citizenship thing that they each are a fabulous ambassadors for, an absolutely wonderful gift. A fabulous consequence of the GFA that allows Ciara run for Ireland as is her wish and also represent Northern Ireland in the Commonwealth Games, which she is extremely proud of. Nesbitt has a British and Irish passport too. He as a Protestant totally embraces the celebration of what unifies or binds people rather than what separates or differentiates them.
He spoke really well about, how for years people were looking for what made them different rather than what commonalities concerned them.

I appreciate that other people in the UK would like the benefits they have from the protocol also but obviously people in Scotland don’t have a GFA.

But Sadds think tank sketches really do throw up some interesting ideas.
We’ve enough to think about back here, but I do think it throws a lot of food for thought to the rest of the UK, not just NI.
 
aguero93:20 said:
Where do you import the sensible adults from?
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I think a proviso was that you would be talking about pro remain Wales/Eng. Scotland/NI too I believe although the inclusiveness of all sides up north may be an issue alright. Then there’s the EU itself. Shouldn’t be a problem finding an adult to talk to.

That leaves the elephant in the room Aguero. What are you getting at?
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
I think a proviso was that you would be talking about pro remain Wales/Eng. Scotland/NI too I believe although the inclusiveness of all sides up north may be an issue alright. Then there’s the EU itself. Shouldn’t be a problem finding an adult to talk to.

That leaves the elephant in the room Aguero. What are you getting at?
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I'd hate for these talks to happen now tbh. FF/FG badly lacking in 'statesmen', SF not much better and would rile up the English and the unionists, don't see many good options to represent Ireland. Best of the lot would be Mairead McGuinness but she's on the EU panel now.
Shite options to represent Ireland and even then the British/English/Scottish options make ours look very good.
 
aguero93:20 said:
I'd hate for these talks to happen now tbh. FF/FG badly lacking in 'statesmen', SF not much better and would rile up the English and the unionists, don't see many good options to represent Ireland. Best of the lot would be Mairead McGuinness but she's on the EU panel now.
Shite options to represent Ireland and even then the British/English/Scottish options make ours look very good.
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I wouldn’t disagree with you.
I think I alluded to it in my initial response to Sadds, that getting my head around a scenario that actually involves us, certainly wouldn’t be until the UK/Scotland sort themselves out first in regards to their position with the EU. I think then NI face an existential decision, because they then really would have a stake in the overall UK game. Once they’re involved, we are involved.

Now in the overall planning scenario that I think Sadds is suggesting. A think tank to do possible walk throughs. Planning in advance, dare I say. Yes I do see an issue with who would represent our interests.

I do think that is pie in the sky however and if you were to have any reality it would be more along the lines of the UK/Scotland/NI addressing issues we don’t have a say in first before involving us.

Edit: I read that back to myself and it really is all very hypothetical.
I do think with the state UK is in at the moment we probably are best staying out of it until they get to their next stage of evolution whatever Sadds, as Prez, guides them to.
 
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What’s going on in court in Belfast?
Masked UVF men siting at the back of a court in a murder trial?

I’m watching Nolan Live and it’s a little worrying the rise of paramilitary organisations again, particularly on the Unionist side.

Can any of our Northern mates put context on what is happening and is there anything visible signs of a change in attitudes.
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
What’s going on in court in Belfast?
Masked UVF men siting at the back of a court in a murder trial?

I’m watching Nolan Live and it’s a little worrying the rise of paramilitary organisations again, particularly on the Unionist side.

Can any of our Northern mates put context on what is happening and is there anything visible signs of a change in attitudes.
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It's a supergrass case trial mate. They should be arrested or at least made take off masks never mind in court but walking down the street. Following news and 'word on the street ' it's rising in both sides and still just below the water as such. IMO it wouldn't take much to kick off again and both sides getting 'funding' for 'community projects' which is keeping them sweet. I know some unionists/loyalists not happy at the cost and actions at Bobby Storey's funeral. At same time I've friends who lost their mother and couldn't have a proper funeral. Only 8 at wake and had to social distance etc.
 
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