Is our defence falsely ridiculed? (Probably Not)

With a high line and pressing wing backs, our formation relies on keeping possession. The defence is being tested too often because we have no creative midfielders to find the right final pass, and no pace in central mid to break up a counter attack.

The defence is getting the brunt of the criticism, but it's the whole team that's at fault.
 
willy eckerslike said:
With a high line and pressing wing backs, our formation relies on keeping possession. The defence is being tested too often because we have no creative midfielders to find the right final pass, and no pace in central mid to break up a counter attack.

The defence is getting the brunt of the criticism, but it's the whole team that's at fault.
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If we don't have the quality players to play that possession based game then even the whole team can't be blamed for not succeeding at it. Surely what's to blame is playing a system which requires men to hold onto the ball (which I think we have to some degree), men to find that creative opening in a packed defence (which we do not have enough of) and to have defenders with pace (hit and miss). If we don't have what's needed for the system then using that system is surely THE big problem. I just want to see an organised defence, who aren't constantly on the back foot or facing our own goal, working as a four (five with Joe a, six/seven with 2 CMs, 9 with 2 wide players tucking back) who understand where each other should be and move as a unit. Theres too much pace in this league to expect yaya, demichelis, zaba, etc to win it back quickly when we frequently lose possession due to not finding that creative, defence unlocking pass.
 
dajd1984 said:
If we don't have the quality players to play that possession based game then even the whole team can't be blamed for not succeeding at it. Surely what's to blame is playing a system which requires men to hold onto the ball (which I think we have to some degree), men to find that creative opening in a packed defence (which we do not have enough of) and to have defenders with pace (hit and miss). If we don't have what's needed for the system then using that system is surely THE big problem. I just want to see an organised defence, who aren't constantly on the back foot or facing our own goal, working as a four (five with Joe a, six/seven with 2 CMs, 9 with 2 wide players tucking back) who understand where each other should be and move as a unit. Theres too much pace in this league to expect yaya, demichelis, zaba, etc to win it back quickly when we frequently lose possession due to not finding that creative, defence unlocking pass.
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I've said elsewhere that the club have decided on a system to play, and that's the end of the matter. If players aren't good enough then they go and we get ones who are.

Maybe this works at Barca, I don't watch them enough, but I have doubts it will work in England. Then again, I think we are REALLY poor at the moment, yet still have 4 trophies to aim for.

The club will stick to whatever plan they set at the beginning of the season and review at the end.
 
Football Tactics 101 , if you play a high defensive line you need to have pressure on the ball so the opposition cant get their head up and pick out the killer pass.

We have 3/4 passengers in our midfield and attack who don't seem to want to press , which means as a team we dont press with conviction or consistency



Pep at Barca played with as high a line as was possible, condensing the play in the opposition half , which means the pressing players dont have the distance to travel to close down. We will be playing with a high line when he arrives, he will need players that buy into this ie players who will put in a shift for the team
 
DJBusinesscake said:
Yeah Saturday was pretty conclusive wasn't it, the OP question I made was justified at the time, but I feel this game sort of brought things to light. Pep needs to focus on making changes in defence when he arrives. So poor.
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Your question wasn't unreasonable, my only issue with your OP really was the use of the stats for goals conceded. I know a lot of people don't agree but I honestly don't think a raw goals conceded stat alone can tell you whether you are defending well. It only takes watching our team defensively (and I include the whole team in that not just the back four) to see that it is a million miles away from being good. Sometimes it is ok, way too often it is fucking horrific but it is almost never good. A genuinely good defence doesn't need to rely on the keeper to make one on one saves too often or for strikers to miss clear chances. As Neville said earlier in the thread, we got a clean sheet at Sunderland but you'd be hard pushed to say that we defended well. I think that over the last 2.5 years a fair few City fans have forgotten that it is possible to go through matches giving hardly a sniff of a chance to the opposition, especially at home to relatively shite teams. But I've heard all sorts of excuses for why it supposedly just isn't possible anymore. Well I think it is still possible.
 
dasblues said:
Pep at Barca played with as high a line as was possible, condensing the play in the opposition half , which means the pressing players dont have the distance to travel to close down. We will be playing with a high line when he arrives, he will need players that buy into this ie players who will put in a shift for the team
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This was all said when Pellers first arrived. High line. Pressing. Fitness. We will be buying players that fit into Pellers philosophy. Players will be worked harder. Have you seen Vinny's tweet about how he has never worked harder in pre-season? Yada, yada.

Three seasons later we are getting bitch slapped at home by Leicester. And Liverpool. And away at Spurs. We are losing games 3-1, 4-1 and right now Spurs at home is starting to feel like it did when Hughes was in charge. Hope rather than expectation.

On the other hand we ain't Chelsea so there's a plus and if Leicester win the title then fair play to them.
 
dasblues said:
Football Tactics 101 , if you play a high defensive line you need to have pressure on the ball so the opposition cant get their head up and pick out the killer pass.

We have 3/4 passengers in our midfield and attack who don't seem to want to press , which means as a team we dont press with conviction or consistency



Pep at Barca played with as high a line as was possible, condensing the play in the opposition half , which means the pressing players dont have the distance to travel to close down. We will be playing with a high line when he arrives, he will need players that buy into this ie players who will put in a shift for the team
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If the whole team isn't organised to press, it doesn't work.

One thing Rodger's Liverpool were good at (on their day) was pressing & when Sterling arrived I clearly remember him doing it, turning his head & waving his arms to say 'where are the rest of you ?' as there was a big space behind him. I've seen Aguero do the same.

If you are an intelligent player, how often are you going to waste energy running at defenders, when they can just plop the ball past you to a free man ? You are just going to ignore the manager, if he asks you to do that time & again, with no backup, as it will just ruin your own energy level, make you less effective & do nothing for the team. It needs to be a 100% plan. I've criticised Otamendi for flying around, but tbf, if he is backed up by the whole team pressing, it wouldn't be so bad or so dangerous.

These players are making bad decisions of when to press or not but they are doing so in a system which is neither one thing nor another under a manager who seems to be unable or unwilling to commit to one thing or another. They are not smart enough to just do this by themselves, they need organising.
 
Neville Kneville said:
If the whole team isn't organised to press, it doesn't work.

One thing Rodger's Liverpool were good at (on their day) was pressing & when Sterling arrived I clearly remember him doing it, turning his head & waving his arms to say 'where are the rest of you ?' as there was a big space behind him. I've seen Aguero do the same.

If you are an intelligent player, how often are you going to waste energy running at defenders, when they can just plop the ball past you to a free man ? You are just going to ignore the manager, if he asks you to do that time & again, with no backup, as it will just ruin your own energy level, make you less effective & do nothing for the team. It needs to be a 100% plan. I've criticised Otamendi for flying around, but tbf, if he is backed up by the whole team pressing, it wouldn't be so bad or so dangerous.

These players are making bad decisions of when to press or not but they are doing so in a system which is neither one thing nor another under a manager who seems to be unable or unwilling to commit to one thing or another. They are not smart enough to just do this by themselves, they need organising.
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Presumably that is the big difference when Kompany comes in that he is able to do some organising. It can't be a coincidence that (ignoring much of the second half of last season when pretty much all our defenders were a shambles including VK) when Kompany comes in, everyone around him, particularly the defenders look so much better and so much more composed. I just don't see why enough organisation can't be done between matches so that it doesn't rely almost completely on Kompany to be organising things on the hoof so to speak. Isn't that exactly the job of the coaches? It isn't like Kompany is the only one on the pitch with decent experience.
 
Neville Kneville said:
If the whole team isn't organised to press, it doesn't work.

One thing Rodger's Liverpool were good at (on their day) was pressing & when Sterling arrived I clearly remember him doing it, turning his head & waving his arms to say 'where are the rest of you ?' as there was a big space behind him. I've seen Aguero do the same.

If you are an intelligent player, how often are you going to waste energy running at defenders, when they can just plop the ball past you to a free man ? You are just going to ignore the manager, if he asks you to do that time & again, with no backup, as it will just ruin your own energy level, make you less effective & do nothing for the team. It needs to be a 100% plan. I've criticised Otamendi for flying around, but tbf, if he is backed up by the whole team pressing, it wouldn't be so bad or so dangerous.

These players are making bad decisions of when to press or not but they are doing so in a system which is neither one thing nor another under a manager who seems to be unable or unwilling to commit to one thing or another. They are not smart enough to just do this by themselves, they need organising.
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We're effectively a disorganised, leaderless group of talented players decimated by injury.
 
The way we set up on set pieces have been worrisome for a long time. It is disorganized and scramble every time. For a change ,I would like to see zonal marking .
 
Lancet Fluke said:
Your question wasn't unreasonable, my only issue with your OP really was the use of the stats for goals conceded. I know a lot of people don't agree but I honestly don't think a raw goals conceded stat alone can tell you whether you are defending well. It only takes watching our team defensively (and I include the whole team in that not just the back four) to see that it is a million miles away from being good. Sometimes it is ok, way too often it is fucking horrific but it is almost never good. A genuinely good defence doesn't need to rely on the keeper to make one on one saves too often or for strikers to miss clear chances. As Neville said earlier in the thread, we got a clean sheet at Sunderland but you'd be hard pushed to say that we defended well. I think that over the last 2.5 years a fair few City fans have forgotten that it is possible to go through matches giving hardly a sniff of a chance to the opposition, especially at home to relatively shite teams. But I've heard all sorts of excuses for why it supposedly just isn't possible anymore. Well I think it is still possible.
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Yeah I realise this 100% with more thought, Joe Hart has been class this season, and without him our defensive stats would show how bad we have been.
 
DJBusinesscake said:
Yeah I realise this 100% with more thought, Joe Hart has been class this season, and without him our defensive stats would show how bad we have been.
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There have been times in the past where Joe was criticised because he basically had nothing to do, then the oppo had one shot & it ended up in the back of the net. I think if we look at his performances this season, he has shown what an absolute quality keeper he is. Sure he's dropped a few bollocks himself, everyone does, but he's made some really big saves, some of which have gone a bit unnoticed as we ended up losing anyway. But it could have been much worse I think.
 
Neville Kneville said:
There have been times in the past where Joe was criticised because he basically had nothing to do, then the oppo had one shot & it ended up in the back of the net. I think if we look at his performances this season, he has shown what an absolute quality keeper he is. Sure he's dropped a few bollocks himself, everyone does, but he's made some really big saves, some of which have gone a bit unnoticed as we ended up losing anyway. But it could have been much worse I think.
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Although Pellers (maybe rightfully so) has received a lot of stick over the last few months, he deserves a little credit with the Joe Hart performances. Ever since he dropped Hart due to being poor, hes come back as one of the best keepers in the world. I wonder what would have happened if he wasn't dropped?
 
DJBusinesscake said:
Although Pellers (maybe rightfully so) has received a lot of stick over the last few months, he deserves a little credit with the Joe Hart performances. Ever since he dropped Hart due to being poor, hes come back as one of the best keepers in the world. I wonder what would have happened if he wasn't dropped?
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Yeah that's fair enough. He handled the situation with Joe very well.
 
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