Is racism really rife in English football?

[Unknown_Genius]

I think most people tend to think in this country racism is just against black people, in many other countries it is not only black people, for example I have American friends and their jokes are against Polish/Polaks. People in England take he piss out of Scots and the Irish, but its very rarely picked up on because it's not the colour of their skin and it won't win the politicians any votes.
I sometimes think people misunderstand remarks that are made against people, you might say "Useless black bastard" but not meaning it to be racist, it's just that you've picked on a particular trait of that person, the same way you might say "Useless ginger bastard" or "Big nose bastard", obviously if there's is venom behind it then that's completely different.
A few years ago when Harry Kewel played for Liverpool a guy sat near me who was always coming out with good one liners basically said something taking the piss out of his Aussie heritage, somebody complained it was racist and he was banned for 5 matches!! The guy was devastated, there was no venom or malice it was purely an off the cuff comment, I just think people need to take a step back sometimes. Compared to the 70s and 80s I've not seen or heard anything for years.

People taking the piss out of Scots and Irish is completely different to racially abusing someone because of their skin colour. Scots/Irish isn't a race. It can be used in a manner to offend someone, but its not racism. I would say "Useless Black bastard" is definitely racist. Your bringing up their skin colour in a negative manner, with the word "bastard", implying a negative connection between the two. When was the last time you've heard someone called a "well-built bastard" "a white bastard" "a good looking bastard" or an "intelligent bastard". Possibly never.

 

[Anonymous]

tbf we probably have one of the least ethnicly diverse crowds at the ethihad

 

[Rammyblues]

IMO it is rife in society as a whole so why should football be exempt.

 

[peoffrey]

I've o.ly witnessed racism at football twice. Once years ago at Maine road, and last year at the semi against the rags.
I do agree with poeffrey in that I think because it is frowned upon in society there. Tends to be a minority who harbour these views but won't say anything until they loose their head.

Thankfully, however I think its a minority these days and would hope fellow blues had enough about them to register their distaste if witnessing it

Going to football matches still seems to be the pursuit of the white, upper working class and those predominantly of a Christian background regardless of actual faith.

Grounds like Upton Park and The New Den are slap bang in the middle of some of the multi-cultural areas imaginable (Newham in East London has 60 different nationalities represented) yet their matchday crowds are almost exclusively white. Football still has a long way to go as other social pursuits are usually far more mixed in terms of diversity of participants.<br /><br />-- Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:00 pm --<br /><br />

"a white bastard"

I got called that on Slade Lane in Longsight once. The offender had the same skin tone Nigel de Jong which indidcates white genes in himself. I can recall when it happened, where I'd been and even what I was wearing. I just had to take it and walk on because I've no idea what would've happened had I said anything back. It just seemed the easier thing to do.

 

[Blue Maverick]

I think most people tend to think in this country racism is just against black people, in many other countries it is not only black people, for example I have American friends and their jokes are against Polish/Polaks. People in England take he piss out of Scots and the Irish, but its very rarely picked up on because it's not the colour of their skin and it won't win the politicians any votes.
I sometimes think people misunderstand remarks that are made against people, you might say "Useless black bastard" but not meaning it to be racist, it's just that you've picked on a particular trait of that person, the same way you might say "Useless ginger bastard" or "Big nose bastard", obviously if there's is venom behind it then that's completely different.
A few years ago when Harry Kewel played for Liverpool a guy sat near me who was always coming out with good one liners basically said something taking the piss out of his Aussie heritage, somebody complained it was racist and he was banned for 5 matches!! The guy was devastated, there was no venom or malice it was purely an off the cuff comment, I just think people need to take a step back sometimes. Compared to the 70s and 80s I've not seen or heard anything for years.

People taking the piss out of Scots and Irish is completely different to racially abusing someone because of their skin colour. Scots/Irish isn't a race. It can be used in a manner to offend someone, but its not racism. I would say "Useless Black bastard" is definitely racist. Your bringing up their skin colour in a negative manner, with the word "bastard", implying a negative connection between the two. When was the last time you've heard someone called a "well-built bastard" "a white bastard" "a good looking bastard" or an "intelligent bastard". Possibly never.

A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.
A genealogical line; a lineage.
Humans considered as a group.

By the second definition the Scots/Irish are a race.

 

[davymcfc]

No.

 

[akratic]

ok.. 1st time poster, long time lurker/city fan from New Zealand here.
I'm going to break my eternal-lurker vow and offer a LONG comment (as an outsider and hopefully an objective one to boot) cos this whole issue has been driving me nuts. it just doesn't make any sense. can't.. hold.. it... in.. any.. more... grrrrr!

Here is the widely accept and standard definition of....
Racism: prejudice or discrimination where the antecedent cause is race/ethnicity/origin.

the proposition... 'i wont employ him cos he is white' is racism. as is 'hmm he is black therefore he must be a criminal'...

BUT uttering 'you're a stupid white ****' or 'you're a black arsehole' - these are not examples of racism. They are examples of rude and offensive behaviour which might very well be true but are rude etc all the same... example ...recently Tiger Woods was called a 'black arsehole' by his ex-caddie. What a rude douche you are Mr Williams but as it turns out you're not actually wrong. Tiger is in fact black and by all accounts he is indeed an arsehole (calling Mr Williams a racist would be laughable given the relationship btwn himself and Mr Woods over the years). Sledging or saying things to intentionally wind people up is part and parcel of sport. Should it be banned.. probably.. but is it racism if part of your sledge refers to someones origins/ethnicity.. NO it isn't. unless...

unless.. what you're really saying is 'you're a stupid white **** and the only reason i have which leads me to believe you are stupid and a **** is the fact that you are white'. Now that is racist. ie when ethnicity/origins/race is the cause of the insult and not simply a referential factor in the utterance.

So in short referencing the colour of someone's skin when presented as an insult, is an insult and not racism, and is no different to calling someone a 'bignosed ****' or 'a fat prick' - you're taking an insult and personalising it, presumably to remove referential ambiguity. you are not saying 'you're a bignosed **** and the only reason i believe you're a **** is cos of your big nose' same for the proposition 'you're a black prick' without the caveat ie '...and i only believe you are a <insult> is because of the <insert sensitive physical charactistic>'

i repeat.. it's not a good thing. but it isn't racism. the person making the utterance may be racist or they may not be but an insult with a referential to someones origins/colour is not sufficient evidence to make that judgement.

Thus there is no such thing as a racial insult (where they take the short form of 'you're a dumb whitey'). it is just an insult that references an observable characteristic of the individual being insulted. imo stamp out sledging in the game and the emotively charged 'racial' part won't be an issue :) for me all this seems rather hypocritical in a game where an individual can slag off the family of another player while on pitch (as per Evra/the world cup Zidane thing) or a player can be subjected to death threats (as per Joe Hart in the annihilation-derby) or a player is called 'a fat bastard' etcetc. References to someones skin colour is not a special case of the above, and if we are genuinely serious about treating people equally regardless of their origins/skin colour then it cannot be a special case and by that i mean 'i am tall' is just as important a feature of me as 'i am white' or 'i have a big nose' - attributing value to one of these over the other is meaningless. Only once we stop attributing value to ones skin colour can we hope to stop racism.

S.Blatter tried to say this right back at the beginning of the evra/suarez mess. He claimed that players are not discriminated against based on their origins/skin colour nor is there any (observable) prejudice against these players (I took that to mean from a organisational/club perspective) and that sledging on the pitch is something that needs to be resolved by the players/between the players on the field. What a thoroughly rational position, yet for some reason it caused an uproar there.

I wonder if all this is really just an English thing.

so in my opinion #1) Evra vs Suarez - Evra was in the wrong if he did indeed insult the family of Suarez, whereas all Mr Suarez did is restate the observable 'you're black'. Oh yes Suarez is a twat but calling Evra a negro is not racism when he is in fact black!!! But to attack another player's family to wind them up... sheesh. plus where's the witch-hunt to find the fans who threatened Joe Hart's life? Surely that is waaaay more serious then calling a white person white or a black person black even if it is in the guise of an insult.

opinion #2) why do fans (ie the Porto ones last week) make monkey noises when some of them were themselves black and they have black players.. simply because it isn't about race or origins it is about sledging, it's about getting in peoples heads and messing with them (from the porto fans perspective Mario was a good choice of target given his sometimes dodgy temperament), it is all about getting the edge on your opposition (even if you're a fan doing it).

It isn't right but it isn't racism.

So to answer the op, as an outsider looking in, I would say no English football isn't inherently racist (both at the organisational level and the fanbase), but there is a hell of a lot of nastiness in the sport usually aimed at players by both fans and other players alike and it is most definitely fed into and encouraged by your media for self serving reasons.

:D

fin